Jinnah's only lost case- Defending the "killer" of a Blasphemer, Ghazi Ilm Deen (R.H)

[Awesome]

If Iqbal did indeed condone murder by an extremist, if so many Pakistanis here celebrate a murderer, then the very basis of my understanding of this nation of Pakistan was wrong.

We are not the same even at the human level. Thank you Jinnah!

We are fine with our humanity, worry about finding yours or have you stopped voting for Modi yet?

Don't parachute into discussions without reading the meat of what everyone has said.

 

[Ticking Bomb]

If Iqbal did indeed condone murder by an extremist, if so many Pakistanis here celebrate a murderer, then the very basis of my understanding of this nation of Pakistan was wrong.

We are not the same even at the human level. Thank you Jinnah!

You bet we are not at the same human level. Thank you Jinnah.

 

[Mabs]

I would like anyone who is against the blasphemy Law,to just explain to me their reservations with it. It should be repelled because it is discriminatory towards the minorities or because it has no Islamic justification and is a deliberate mutation of the Shariah Law?

I personally don't get what all the fuss is about. Religion is a sensitive matter, and people tend to gt riled up about it,be it Hindus or Muslims.Just make it a criminal offense to abuse any religion or its followers and end the whole dilemma. Why do people want the right to insult millions if not billions of people under the guise of freedom of speech. Having the right to curse the most revered and respected figure to many, does not personify civilization or its ideals-- having the sense to demonstrate self restraint and respect other people and their ideas does.

How many of you have the absolute freedom to blur out whatever the hell you want on the dining table? How many of you would show self restraint, if there were children or elders around? There is no such thing as the absolute freedom of speech. If you really believe that such a phenomenon exists , I would advise you to tell you professor or your boss to F**k off the next time you see them, and keep doing it until your civil sense is satiated. Also, please enlighten us of the consequences.

 

[JonAsad]

If Iqbal did indeed condone murder by an extremist, if so many Pakistanis here celebrate a murderer, then the very basis of my understanding of this nation of Pakistan was wrong.

We are not the same even at the human level. Thank you Jinnah!

ignorance is a bliss, thank you for your time, now put you head back in the hole like an ostrich

 

[UnitedPak]

If Iqbal did indeed condone murder by an extremist, if so many Pakistanis here celebrate a murderer, then the very basis of my understanding of this nation of Pakistan was wrong.

We are not the same even at the human level. Thank you Jinnah!

I find it astounding that Jinnahs actions in the 1920s shock you the most. Please get a God damn clue what British policies involved in those days. That insulting book was a single plot among many that disgruntled Muslims and made them feel helpless against the powerful British occupiers and the Hindu majority working hand in hand to humiliate Muslims in their own lands. I suspect you imagined a rosy picture of life in those days where the enlightened lovely secular people just happened to publish a slightly controversial book in pursuit of everlasting wisdom...nope. Try again. Secularism didnt exist. Martial racism, 'Aryan' supremacy, imperialism and British arrogance did exist in abundance. I didnt expect you to show one bit of rationality when commenting on anything Jinnah so it would be advisable to keep your silly comments to your self.

This is exactly why the Pakistan movement happened. Thank you Jinnah.

 

[UnitedPak]

Ghazi Ilm Din may very well have been the eye opener for Jinnah and Iqbal. The murder may have been questionable but his acceptance of punishment and his lesson to our educated class was invaluable. May God bless his soul.

 

[notsuperstitious]

I find it astounding that Jinnahs actions in the 1920s shock you the most. Please get a God damn clue what British policies involved in those days. That insulting book was a single plot among many that disgruntled Muslims and made them feel helpless against the powerful British occupiers and the Hindu majority working hand in hand to humiliate Muslims in their own lands. I suspect you imagined a rosy picture of life in those days where the enlightened lovely secular people just happened to publish a slightly controversial book in pursuit of everlasting wisdom...nope. Try again. Secularism didnt exist. Martial racism, 'Aryan' supremacy, imperialism and British arrogance did exist in abundance. I didnt expect you to show one bit of rationality when commenting on anything Jinnah so it would be advisable to keep your silly comments to your self.

This is exactly why the Pakistan movement happened. Thank you Jinnah.

So agin it was the evil hindoos who were responsible for making Iqbal condone murder? Oh then its OK I guess. All that humiliation and anger, that gives one permit to murder people you don't like and then create nations through 'direct action' where you can name streets after the murderers. Despite the BS abt those 'times', fact is most of you still think that murderer was a hero. I don't expect you to understand whats wrong with that too, after all, religious supremacism is not exactly rational, is it? Lets kill the danish cartoonist now, after all these times are also humiliating, are they not mr lame excuses?

We are fine with our humanity, worry about finding yours or have you stopped voting for Modi yet?

Don't parachute into discussions without reading the meat of what everyone has said.

Modi is not a convicted murderer, and so is not Hafeez Saeed and all those other local heroes in your nation. So lets not drag them in and just talk about proven murderers being celebrated as heroes, shall we?

Unless you ALSO think killing a blasphemer is not murder. Nothing will surprise me now.

 

[Mabs]

Unless you think killing a blasphemer is not murder. Nothing will surprise me now.

I am sure you will not have any problem in murdering people in the name of country, right? Soldiers too kill people, but are celebrated. They technically "are murderers". I really do not get this hypocrisy--why is that some things are worth killing for and others not? Why can a soldier kill for his country but a man can not for his faith? What makes a country's territorial boundaries so sacred that every action taken to secure them is condoned and celebrated, no matter how heinous.

I will not say that a blasphemer should/should not be killed, because there is a debate about the authenticity of the punishment and the reference given for it. But, I would like to know how can you justify the massacre done in Iraq and Afghanistan? How can you justify the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the "murder" of thousands of innocent people.

The real problem is not the religious extremist or their different interpretation of a religion, they are in minority. The real problem are the people who worship war and glorify it, they are in majority.

For a better idea, look up how many people have been murdered in history in the name of a country/territory, and how many have been murdered in the name of blasphemy.

 

[v9s]

I would like anyone who is against the blasphemy Law,to just explain to me their reservations with it. It should be repelled because it is discriminatory towards the minorities or because it has no Islamic justification and is a deliberate mutation of the Shariah Law?

Because it has no Quranic justification.

 

[Xestan]

Because it has no Quranic justification.

Here you go..

Read it carefully..

Not just Islam, The punishment for blasphemy in most of the major religions is death. It is stated in the Old Testament of the Bible, which is the authority for both the Jews and the Christians:


And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: [Book of Leviticus 24:16]


Moreover, if we read Manusmriti, the Law book of the Hindus, it says:

“If a man born of a lower class intentionally bothers a priest, the king should punish him physically with various forms of corporal and capital punishment that make men shudder.” [Manusmriti 9:248]


Regarding the punishment for blasphemy in Islam, it is mentioned in the Glorious Qur’an:


“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;” [Surah Al-Maidah 5:33]. In Islam, a person who has committed blasphemy can either be killed or crucified, or his opposite hands and feet can be cut off, or he can be exiled from that land. On the other hand, in other religions there is no other option except capital punishment. Islam at least has four options of punishment for an act of blasphemy.


In spite of all the negative propaganda in a section of the western media, ironically Islam still happens to be the fastest growing religion, not just in the west but also across the world. The more people try to suppress Islam, the more it will prevail. Allah (swt) will make His Deen (Islam) to prevail over all the other ways of life irrespective of people mocking and ridiculing His messengers. As Allah says in the Glorious Quran:


“Mocked were (many) Messengers before thee; but the scoffers were hemmed in by the thing that they mocked.” [Surah Al-An’aam 6:10].


(Readers can send their questions to Dr Zakir Naik on his email: zakir@irf.net)

And furthermore, have you ever heard the incident of beheading of a Imam Masjid by Hazrat Umar [R.A] when he just spoke some words in against the respect f Hazoor [S.A.W]. Do you think He [R.A] didn't know Islam?

And here, the above example, you're saying Iqbal didn't know Islam?

 

[v9s]

Regarding the punishment for blasphemy in Islam, it is mentioned in the Glorious Qur’an:


“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;” [Surah Al-Maidah 5:33]. In Islam, a person who has committed blasphemy can either be killed or crucified, or his opposite hands and feet can be cut off, or he can be exiled from that land. On the other hand, in other religions there is no other option except capital punishment. Islam at least has four options of punishment for an act of blasphemy.


“Mocked were (many) Messengers before thee; but the scoffers were hemmed in by the thing that they mocked.” [Surah Al-An’aam 6:10].

[5:33] The just retribution for those who fight GOD and His messenger, and commit horrendous crimes, is to be killed, or crucified, or to have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land. This is to humiliate them in this life, then they suffer a far worse retribution in the Hereafter.

The first verse talks about retribution for those who fight God and his messenger and commit horrendous crimes. God also states in the Quran:

[6:151] "..You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."

Is it justified to KILL someone if they only mocked the Prophet by mere words? Are they evicting you from your homes, stopping you from practicing your faith by this? Are they committing a horrendous crime worthy of death? NO.

I'd suggest you use your own rational thinking when studying the Quran.

[54:17]We made the Quran easy to learn - does any of you wish to learn?

 

[Xestan]

[5:33] The just retribution for those who fight GOD and His messenger, and commit horrendous crimes, is to be killed, or crucified, or to have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land. This is to humiliate them in this life, then they suffer a far worse retribution in the Hereafter.

The first verse talks about retribution for those who fight God and his messenger and commit horrendous crimes. God also states in the Quran:

[6:151] "..You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."

Is it justified to KILL someone if they only mocked the Prophet by mere words? Are they evicting you from your homes, stopping you from practicing your faith by this? Are they committing a horrendous crime worthy of death? NO.

I'd suggest you use your own rational thinking when studying the Quran.

[54:17]We made the Quran easy to learn - does any of you wish to learn?

Now read this with your open eyes...

The answer to this question may be given by addressing the two following issues:

1 – The ruling on one who insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

The scholars are unanimously agreed that a Muslim who insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) becomes a kaafir and an apostate who is to be executed. This consensus was narrated by more than one of the scholars, such as Imaam Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh, Ibn al-Mundhir, al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad, al-Khattaabi and others. Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/13-16

This ruling is indicated by the Qur’aan and Sunnah.

In the Qur’aan it says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The hypocrites fear lest a Soorah (chapter of the Qur’aan) should be revealed about them, showing them what is in their hearts. Say: ‘(Go ahead and) mock! But certainly Allaah will bring to light all that you fear.’

If you ask them (about this), they declare: ‘We were only talking idly and joking.’ Say: ‘Was it at Allaah, and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?’

Make no excuse; you disbelieved after you had believed”

[al-Tawbah 9:64-66]

This verse clearly states that mocking Allaah, His verses and His Messenger constitutes kufr, so that applies even more so to insulting. The verse also indicates that whoever belittles the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is also a kaafir, whether he was serious or joking.

With regard to the Sunnah, Abu Dawood (4362) narrated from ‘Ali that a Jewish woman used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him, so a man strangled her until she died, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ruled that no blood money was due in this case.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Saarim al-Maslool (1/162): This hadeeth is jayyid, and there is a corroborating report in the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Abbaas which we will quote below.

This hadeeth clearly indicates that it was permissible to kill that woman because she used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Abu Dawood (4361) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas that a blind man had a freed concubine (umm walad) who used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him. He told her not to do that but she did not stop, and he rebuked her but she did not heed him. One night, when she started to say bad things about the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and insult him, he took a short sword or dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it and killed her. The following morning that was mentioned to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He called the people together and said, “I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right over him that he should stand up.” The blind man stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I am the one who did it; she used to insult you and say bad things about you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not give up her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was kind to me. Last night she began to insult you and say bad things about you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.” Thereupon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Bear witness, there is no blood money due for her.”

(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 3655)

It seems that this woman was a kaafir, not a Muslim, for a Muslim could never do such an evil action. If she was a Muslim she would have become an apostate by this action, in which case it would not have been permissible for her master to keep her; in that case it would not have been good enough if he were to keep her and simply rebuke her.

Al-Nasaa’i narrated (4071) that Abu Barzah al-Aslami said: A man spoke harshly to Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq and I said, ‘Shall I kill him?’ He rebuked me and said, ‘That is not for anyone after the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) .’” (Saheeh al-Nasaa’i, 3795)

It may be noted from this that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had the right to kill whoever insulted him and spoke harshly to him, and that included both Muslims and kaafirs.

The second issue is: if a person who insulted the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) repents, should his repentance be accepted or not?

The scholars are agreed that if such a person repents sincerely and regrets what he has done, this repentance will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection and Allaah will forgive him.

But they differed as to whether his repentance should be accepted in this world and whether that means he is no longer subject to the sentence of execution.

Maalik and Ahmad were of the view that it should not be accepted, and that he should be killed even if he has repented.

They quoted as evidence the Sunnah and proper understanding of the ahaadeeth:

In the Sunnah, Abu Dawood (2683) narrated that Sa’d ibn Abi Waqqaas said: “On the Day of the Conquest of Makkah, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) granted safety to the people except for four men and two women, and he named them, and Ibn Abi Sarh… As for Ibn Abi Sarh, he hid with ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan, and when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) called the people to give their allegiance to him, he brought him to stand before the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He said, “O Prophet of Allaah, accept the allegiance of ‘Abd-Allaah.” He raised his head and looked at him three times, refusing him, then he accepted his allegiance after the third time. Then he turned to his companions and said: “Was there not among you any smart man who could have got up and killed this person when he saw me refusing to give him my hand and accept his allegiance?” They said, “We do not know what is in your heart, O Messenger of Allaah. Why did you not gesture to us with your eyes?” He said, “It is not befitting for a Prophet to betray a person with a gesture of his eyes.”

(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 2334)

This clearly indicates that in a case such as this apostate who had insulted the Prophet (S), it is not obligatory to accept his repentance, rather it is permissible to kill him even if he comes repentant.

‘Abd-Allaah ibn Sa’d was one of those who used to write down the Revelation, then he apostatized and claimed that he used to add whatever he wanted to the Revelation. This was a lie and a fabrication against the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and it was a kind of insult. Then he became Muslim again and was a good Muslim, may Allaah be pleased with him. Al-Saarim 115.

With regard to proper understanding of the ahaadeeth:

They said that insulting the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has to do with two rights, the right of Allaah and the right of a human being. With regard to the right of Allaah, this is obvious, because it is casting aspersions upon His Message, His Book and His Religion. As for the right of a human being, this is also obvious, because it is like trying to slander the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) by this insult. In a case which involves both the rights of Allaah and the rights of a human being, the rights of the human beings are not dropped when the person repents, as in the case of the punishment for banditry, because if the bandit has killed someone, that means that he must be executed and crucified. But if he repents before he is caught, then the right of Allaah over him, that he should be executed and crucified, no longer applies, but the rights of other humans with regard to qisaas (retaliatory punishment) still stand. The same applies in this case. If the one who insulted the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) repents, then the rights of Allaah no longer apply, but there remains the right of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which still stand despite his repentance.

If it is said, “Can we not forgive him, because during his lifetime the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forgave many of those who had insulted him and he did not execute them?” The answer is:

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sometimes chose to forgive those who had insulted him, and sometimes he ordered that they should be executed, if that served a greater purpose. But now his forgiveness is impossible because he is dead, so the execution of the one who insults him remains the right of Allaah, His Messenger and the believers, and the one who deserves to be executed cannot be let off, so the punishment must be carried out.

Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/438

Insulting the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is one of the worst of forbidden actions, and it constitutes kufr and apostasy from Islam, according to scholarly consensus, whether done seriously or in jest. The one who does that is to be executed even if he repents and whether he is a Muslim or a kaafir. If he repents sincerely and regrets what he has done, this repentance will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection and Allaah will forgive him

 

[mautkimaut]

Amazing nonsense from the Jamaatis and their propaganda machine, Jinnah was not Ilam Din's trial lawyer.

Please read this article from a relative of Ilam Din to clear the misconception caused through false information.



Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

sometimes I think what if Quaid E Azam Jinnah would have been the President of India and Nehru the PM

 

[Xestan]

sometimes I think what if Quaid E Azam Jinnah would have been the President of India and Nehru the PM

Take your imagination to somewhere else, we have a serious discussion going on here, there are plenty of "farigh" threads, go there.

Mods, please clean up the irrelevant posts, thanks.

 

[v9s]

Now read this with your open eyes...
In the Qur’aan it says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The hypocrites fear lest a Soorah (chapter of the Qur’aan) should be revealed about them, showing them what is in their hearts. Say: ‘(Go ahead and) mock! But certainly Allaah will bring to light all that you fear.’

If you ask them (about this), they declare: ‘We were only talking idly and joking.’ Say: ‘Was it at Allaah, and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?’

Make no excuse; you disbelieved after you had believed”

[al-Tawbah 9:64-66]

This verse clearly states that mocking Allaah, His verses and His Messenger constitutes kufr, so that applies even more so to insulting. The verse also indicates that whoever belittles the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is also a kaafir, whether he was serious or joking.

[9:63] Did they not know that anyone who opposes GOD and His messenger has incurred the fire of Hell forever? This is the worst humiliation.

[9:64] The hypocrites worry that a sura may be revealed exposing what is inside their hearts. Say, "Go ahead and mock. GOD will expose exactly what you are afraid of."

[9:65] If you ask them, they would say, "We were only mocking and kidding." Say, "Do you realize that you are mocking GOD, and His revelations, and His messenger?"

[9:66] Do not apologize. You have disbelieved after having believed. If we pardon some of you, we will punish others among you, as a consequence of their wickedness.

[9:67] The hypocrite men and the hypocrite women belong with each other - they advocate evil and prohibit righteousness, and they are stingy. They forgot GOD, so He forgot them. The hypocrites are truly wicked.

[9:68] GOD promises the hypocrite men and the hypocrite women, as well as the disbelievers, the fire of Hell, wherein they abide forever. It suffices them. GOD has condemned them; they have incurred an everlasting retribution.

The verses are pretty clear. God has warned the hypocrites of the retribution they will face in the hereafter due to their mocking, and has condemned them. It does NOT, however, command believers to kill them.

Going back to verse 5:33, "Fighting against God and His messenger" doesn't mean doing something which is not approved by the Quran. People are free to do what they want, as long as they do not hurt other people of course. We learn this from several verses in the Quran. Here are a few:

[25:63] The worshipers of the Most Gracious are those who tread the earth gently, and when the ignorant speak to them, they only utter peace.

[60:8-9] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable. GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

[18:29] Proclaim: "This is the truth from your Lord," then whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve. We have prepared for the transgressors a fire that will completely surround them. When they scream for help, they will be given a liquid like concentrated acid that scalds the faces. What a miserable drink! What a miserable destiny!

[4:114] There is nothing good about their private conferences, except for those who advocate charity, or righteous works, or making peace among the people. Anyone who does this, in response to GOD's teachings, we will grant him a great recompense.

Look at the second portion of verse 5:33 again, "those who commit horrendous crimes." So what are horrendous, unspeakable, and horrific crimes?
People that like to rape and murder children, people that kidnap children from their parents and use them to prostitute them, people that kill for money and people that kill other innocent people, etc

Certainly there are crimes for which it is justifiable to invoke the death penalty, but in the case of mocking the Prophet by mere words, it is not, as clearly ordained in the Quran.

Isn't condemnation by God Almighty enough?