Jinnah Was Right

[prashantazazel]

Look at any Western nation, and you will realise how backwards both our countries are...

What's the point being right or wrong, when both sides are a cesspool of primitive attitudes?

 

[SIPRA]

Title of the thread is acting like a fire on the tails of Sanghis and Bhakts.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That's rich. So, my argument is flawed because Muslims won't support a single party but Hindus does.

The distribution is not what determines the outcome, it is the numbers that determine outcome when we are talking about adding BD and Pak primarily because both are Muslim majority even when united you'd be Muslim majority. And don't even bring Ghar wapasi, it's a joke, the net retention is higher among Muslims and so is conversion rate primarily through marriage from Hindus.

Despite all these "writings on the wall", India is set to be largest Muslim population in the world. If Hindus were in fact angry about Muslims, there wouldn't be any significant Muslim population left in India, I'm not denying communal tensions, they do exist but the scale of it is much much lower than what you like to see and such even that is slowly wearing off.

Not just Indian Hindus, it's a common feeling among Indians. Why should J&K a state just like Kerala or Tamil Nadu should enjoy special benefits? We South/West Indians pay the most to the nation, why should we keep paying them? Let the needy states like Bihar and UP get more funds. We granted them special powers, it's our prerogative to revoke those special powers. We never barred people from Jammu and Kashmir to work here, rule us in center, and bureaucracy. Why should we not have the same privileges in Jammu and Kashmir?

Again, absolute numbers matter little when constituency demographics don’t support Muslims. How many Muslim legislators were elected in the 2019 elections? The problem isn’t that Muslims don’t vote for a ‘single party’ - the problem is that outside of a handful of seats, the Muslim population does not constitute a significant percentage of the electorate and therefore simply cannot win seats on its own - it has to depend upon the larger parties to field Muslim candidates. So from the get go the ‘40% Muslim population’ argument is hogwash in terms of translation into actual seats in the legislature. Even in what is today Pakistan and Bangladesh you wouldn’t get the same number of Muslim legislators because the millions of Hindus & Sikhs, Muslims that migrated in 1947 would have diluted the vote bank of what are now Muslim majority constituencies in Pakistan & Bangladesh. The overall number of Muslim legislators would have still been significantly lower than the proportion of their population in a United India.

And the risk Jinnah identified was precisely this - that a Hindu party selling Hindu supremacist bigotry would unify the Hindu vote whereas a scattered minority with competing ethno-nationist, secular & religious parties vying for their vote would struggle to put up a unifying front.

The only thing the Muslim minority could do was exactly what it did do - demand Pakistan.

With respect to J&K, the answer would have been to stop federal funding to the State. It would have been to ask J&K to enter into reciprocal agreements with other States to allow bilateral work & settlement agreements, failing which Kashmiris would have the same restrictions on working & settling elsewhere that they had for non-Kashmiris in J&K. The answer was not to occupy & imprison the Muslim population of J&K and enact policies to perpetrate a demographic genocide.

Title of the thread is acting like a fire on the tails of Sanghis and Bhakts.

They’ve spent 7 decades pontificating about how India is a ‘great secular democracy’, and have silently harbored hopes (supported by leftists & ethno-nationalists in Pakistan) of ‘Akhand Bharat’, and now the ultra nationalist government they elected has only reinforced the idea of Pakistan amongst Pakistanis and almost demolished India’s PR advantage over Pakistan globally.

 

[Great Janjua]

Thank Allah I can listen to Shafaullah Khan rokhri in peace in Pakistan if I was in gangu land I would be living in an apartment half broken and allah knows what else

 

[Chhatrapati]

Again, absolute numbers matter little when constituency demographics don’t support Muslims. How many Muslim legislators were elected in the 2019 elections? The problem isn’t that Muslims don’t vote for a ‘single party’ - the problem is that outside of a handful of seats, the Muslim population does not constitute a significant percentage of the electorate and therefore simply cannot win seats on its own - it has to depend upon the larger parties to field Muslim candidates. So from the get go the ‘40% Muslim population’ argument is hogwash in terms of translation into actual seats in the legislature. Even in what is today Pakistan and Bangladesh you wouldn’t get the same number of Muslim legislators because the millions of Hindus & Sikhs, Muslims that migrated in 1947 would have diluted the vote bank of what are now Muslim majority constituencies in Pakistan & Bangladesh. The overall number of Muslim legislators would have still been significantly lower than the proportion of their population in a United India.

And the risk Jinnah identified was precisely this - that a Hindu party selling Hindu supremacist bigotry would unify the Hindu vote whereas a scattered minority with competing ethno-nationist, secular & religious parties vying for their vote would struggle to put up a unifying front.

The only thing the Muslim minority could do was exactly what it did do - demand Pakistan.

With respect to J&K, the answer would have been to stop federal funding to the State. It would have been to ask J&K to enter into reciprocal agreements with other States to allow bilateral work & settlement agreements, failing which Kashmiris would have the same restrictions on working & settling elsewhere that they had for non-Kashmiris in J&K. The answer was not to occupy & imprison the Muslim population of J&K and enact policies to perpetrate a demographic genocide.

The idea of secularism is not when only a Muslim can be elected from a Muslim majority region. It becomes secular when we can elect a Muslim from Hindu majority region or vise versa. Both happens in all the elections that happen in India. There are Muslim candidates who are consistently elected from Hindu Majority regions.
Minorities including Muslims in India have decorated a lot of key positions from civilian to military. How can we be secular if we give legislative positions of a particular region only to one particular community?

There is almost an equal migration from both sides. So, please don't tell me an election would favor one community. Even now, BJP the so called Hindu nationalists managed only 37.36% and that includes all, not just Hindus. Then how can you predict the same result with a 40% Muslim population? I know it's a hypothetical scenario, at least let it be logical and balanced.

As for Jammu and Kashmir, your arrangement will not work because such bilateral agreements are for countries.. We are integrating the state. Jammu and Kashmir was a state, not a country.

 

[Great Janjua]

What secularism you have rss type organisation roaming around raping women when an religious organisation is formed in Pakistan its suddenly called terrorism have some logic you Indians are the most retarded species I've seen on the face off this planet

The idea of secularism is not when only a Muslim can be elected from a Muslim majority region. It becomes secular when we can elect a Muslim from Hindu majority region or vise versa. Both happens in all the elections that happen in India. There are Muslim candidates who are consistently elected from Hindu Majority regions.
Minorities including Muslims in India have decorated a lot of key positions from civilian to military. How can we be secular if we give legislative positions of a particular region only to one particular community?

There is almost an equal migration from both sides. So, please don't tell me an election would favor one community. Even now, BJP the so called Hindu nationalists managed only 37.36% and that includes all, not just Hindus. Then how can you predict the same result with a 40% Muslim population? I know it's a hypothetical scenario, at least let it be logical and balanced.

As for Jammu and Kashmir, your arrangement will not work because such bilateral agreements are for countries.. We are integrating the state. Jammu and Kashmir was a state, not a country.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It becomes secular when we can elect a Muslim from Hindu majority region or vise versa. Both happens in all the elections that happen in India.

The demographic advantage at the constituency level would have still been against Muslims even without the Muslims migrating out of India, and without a rallying cry of bigotry & religious nationalism (like the BJP) the Muslim vote would continue to be split further.

How many Muslim legislators (MNA’s) were elected in the last 2 elections in India?

Nothing is clearer than looking at actual facts on the ground, and the facts on the ground are that, despite having close to 200 million Muslims in India, the recent elections resulted in barely 20 odd Muslims being elected in a house of 545 members.

Jinnah had the foresight to recognize all of this and thank goodness that he fought tirelessly for Pakistan’s independence.

As for Jammu and Kashmir, your arrangement will not work because such bilateral agreements are for countries.. We are integrating the state. Jammu and Kashmir was a state, not a country.

There is no rule that ‘such agreements are for countries’. A nation is a compact between its people - a compact that they agree to live as citizens under one flag (or more) and under certain conditions. You cannot force allegiance at the barrel of a gun - that only results in acquiescence and resentment. Primarily the compact that the Kashmiris have with both India and Pakistan is that they be allowed to determine their nationhood via a UN Referendum. Secondly, till that referendum occurs, the compact of the Kashmiris with India was via article 370.

India has violated both compacts with the Kashmiris.

 

[SIPRA]

India's claim of secularism is as valid and true as Sunny Leone's claim of virginity.

 

[GumNaam]

Look at any Western nation, and you will realise how backwards both our countries are...

What's the point being right or wrong, when both sides are a cesspool of primitive attitudes?

WOW, what a piss poor attempt at alluding to that brow beaten "hum sab aik hi to hain" idea...

no no no buddy, hum sab aik NAHI hain...you are the backward ones who lynch minorities, rape women and burn lower caste people...WE are the progressive ones who realize our errors and FIX them instead of increasing them!

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

I'm an Indian and I believe Jinnah was right. Not because of this bill but because for Hindus and Muslims to live together, one has to be in absolute majority. Otherwise, there will always be tensions. Even if there was no Partition initially, the country would have definitely been split apart in 10-15 years because of religious tensions. For both India and Pakistan to stick together though, the government should adopt atheism as the state religion. This takes religious tensions out of the equation.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

If it was British India, there would be nearly 40% Muslim population, and the odds of what you said would be next to none.

Luckily we don't have to take that chance.

 

[SIPRA]

Luckily we don't have to take that chance.

Luckily, these people are very fond of groping for fish, in piss ponds.

"Mootar wichon machhian taulna"

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1203988544928264192

Jinnah was right because not ONLY are Pakistanis not hindus but we are ALSO racially different to indians too. There is NOTHING that can connect Pakistanis to indians. People keep talking about religion being the only difference between Pakistanis and indians but in reality, the difference is MORE racial than just religious. indian so called "Muslims" have FAR more in common with indian sikhs and hindus than they do with Pakistanis.

 

[Nasr]

Im personally a bit uncomfortable with this trend..So will Jinnah be wrong if India magically turns itno a true secular state tomorrow?Jinnah got us the state because we are different people. Our culture and religion is different. so Jinnah stays right regardless what happens nextdoor..

72 years on and where is that "secular state" everyone is harping on about? If it didn't happen in 72 years, it wouldn't happen in another 72 years. As for Pakistan, it isn't Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah that we should be grateful for, we ought to be thanking Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah who granted us people like Jinnah and Iqbal that strove for a Muslim Homeland.

As for India, that country has destroyed any chance it had to peacefully coexist with Muslims the day it allied itself with the illegal, illegitimate, criminal, liar, murderer state of israel. Had India gone and befriend the b@$t@rd child of the anti-christ (israel) there existed a possibility of peace between India and Muslims, not just Pakistan. But now the any avenue of a reproachment between the Islamic World and India are shut, closed and void.

Pakistanis ... do not make the mistake of taking what you've been given, for granted. Because if you do, remember that nations before were punished with awesome punishment from Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah. Ask the nation of Sodom & Gomorrah, nation of Aad and the last nation which was granted so many favors from Allah, Banu Isra'eel. They were all destroyed, the Yahood were destroyed twice. First was a Babylonian Army, followed by the Roman Army.

Pakistaniyun agar aaj bhi tum Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah ka Hukum nahin mano gay, to yaad rakhna, Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah Ghafoor-ur-Raheem to hai, magar jab Al-Akbar ki nafarmani karo gay, to Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah ka ghazab tumhari ruh kamp utha dey gi.

Don't be foolish, ignorant, or arrogant. Don't make that fatal mistake. You have a destiny to fulfill, a destiny which is both glorious and will please Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah only if you abandon your foolish waywardness and hold strong to your Imaan and stand firm on the Sunnah of Nabi Muhammad Alaihi Salaat-u-Wassalam. Remember whose (Alaihi Salaat-u-Wassalam) Ummah you belong to. Remember this Ummah is the LAST ONE.

 

[notorious_eagle]

m

Seriously?
Combine NRC with CAB, millions of Muslims of India are going to become stateless.
How the hell you think Poor labourers living in slums of Mumbai will produce documents to prove Nationality?
This is clearly scheme to snatch right of vote from as many Muslim possible

Who Cares

Indian Muslims decided to stay in India after the partition, so they need to pay the consequences. It's obvious that they are second class citizens now, and are on their way to be slaves of their Hindu Masters. They made their bed, now they need to sleep on it. Unfortunately, they have no place in Pakistan and they cannot be settled in Pakistan.

We can thank Jinnah who had the foresight to see this issue long before.