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Jinnah had a dream, and we failed him

i've already answered in many of my posts about this clueless alphabetical theory that you guys keep on coming up with. the pakistan you made back in 47 does not exist from 71. and that's a fact.

The name Pakistan literally means Land of (the) Pure in Urdu and Persian. It was coined in 1933 as Pakstan by Choudhary Rahmat Ali, a Pakistan Movement activist, who published it in his pamphlet Now or Never.[10] Figuratively, the name is an acronym representing the "thirty million Muslim brethren who live in PAKSTAN" — referring to the names of the five northern regions of the Indian subcontinent, viz.: Punjab, North-West Frontier Province (Afghan Province), Kashmir, Sind, and Baluchistan".[11][12][13] The letter 'i' became the defacto addition to ease pronunciation and form the linguistically correct name.[14]

Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And Pakistan is still on the world map. It doesn't matter what territory we lost in 1971. Only Indians are still in 1971, majority of Pakistanis have moved on.


just because Bengali Muslims couldn't live with you- you call it a useless small piece of land? don't talk like a loser now.

How could they live with us. They were thousands of miles away from us with enemy india in between, and most Pakistanis were not even born in 1971, including me. So why would I be a loser, I didn't lose anything I wasn't even born in 1971. It was thousands of miles away from Pakistan, with no geographical boundary with West Pakistan (Pakistan), and had more population than West Pakistan in 1971 and was smaller than our Sindh Province in total land area. Pakistan didn't lose much. In fact 1971 was a blessing in disguise.

there is no Hindu rule in India. its always Indian rule in India irrespective of religion. you may not understand it but its okay.

India is 80% Hindu. India is a hindu majority country and we want nothing to do with it.

you know- this one thing that i hate about India. i hate India having nuclear bombs. i hope someday we all agree for their destruction.

Whatever. That's your country. My country is Pakistan. We have Pakistan and we are happy, so don't beg us to merge with india because we won't no matter what happens in Pakistan. Anythings better than being under hindu rule, Pakistan is here to stay.

but Muslims and Hindus living together in India. we always lived together and still living together. Indian Muslims are more successful than anyone in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan combined. so you're wrong again.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-...s-lag-behind-then-other-minorities-india.html


Yea keep begging us Pakistanis to merge with india, we will never merge with india. Pakistan will always be an independent country. You might have some luck with Bangladesh, it was also part of British India.
 
India is 80% Hindu. India is a hindu majority country and we want nothing to do with it.

Can't think of anything we want to do with the likes of you either.

Whatever. That's your country. My country is Pakistan. We have Pakistan and we are happy, so don't beg us to merge with india because we won't no matter what happens in Pakistan. Anythings better than being under hindu rule, Pakistan is here to stay.

Merge ?? Not a chance in hell! Whatever some muddle-headed Indians may think, I can assure you that the last things in the minds of most Indians is to merge with you. Not happening! Ever!
 
Can't think of anything we want to do with the likes of you either.



Merge ?? Not a chance in hell! Whatever some muddle-headed Indians may think, I can assure you that the last things in the minds of most Indians is to merge with you. Not happening! Ever!

Glad to hear this. Please also convince the rest of India to forget about Pakistan, it will NEVER merge with India.
 
Yea keep begging us Pakistanis to merge with india, we will never merge with india. Pakistan will always be an independent country. You might have some luck with Bangladesh, it was also part of British India.

No one is begging you to merge. No one in India wants to have anything to do with Pakistan. Last thing we need is for Pakistani problems of terrorism/religious hatred to become a part of our society. We just think that Two Nation Theory does not make sense, and has been non-existent for a long while. There are no 2 nations in the sub-continent. There is not 1 nation of Muslims, instead there are 3 nations where subcontinent Muslims live in today's world. Therefore Two Nation Theory is obsolete. Not exactly Rocket Science is it?
 
@ omar
i didn't see when did i beg about the merger of India and pakistan.

secondly- you lost Bangal not because it was too far from you- but you lost it because you denied them their right and conducted the massacre there.

and about that alphabetical theory- im not denying what it stands for. you should read my previous posts for it.

and yeah- Muslims are staying in India quite peacefully as compared to the Muslims in Pakistan. they are growing too. legging behind has got nothing to do with being a Muslim. there are Hindus and Christians too who are poor in India. so your post doesn't make any sense.

by the way i never claimed that Pakistan should merge with India. we are just talking about Jinnah's dream and 2 nation theory which failed with the creation of Bangladesh- many Muslims remaining with India and so on.
 
The ideology of Pakistan was the fight for the rights of minorities - not to be an Islamic state.

The ideology of Pakistan was a seperate state for the mulism of the subcontinent where they can practice their religion with freedom and the rights of minorties and their religious freedom equally protected. Jinnah had no problem with Pakistan being a Islamic state becuase it was given that when you ask for a seperate state for muslims it would become an islamic state.
 
Jinnah had a dream , yes but it tirned owt to be nightmare both for India's & pakistanies why cause Jinnah could never do what he wnted & those who followed instead of building pakistan they went for easy way of begging to USA & became there proxies as early as 1951 & never tried to leave the main baggage of Feudalism & Hate against India & its own people....like shias , ahemadies & other minorities & gave too much power to mullahs & Army

Now owr pakistani friends beleve that India wants Pakistan to merge with it or Indians are obssesed with pakistan well they are wrong cause we Indians are happy that we separated & dont want to indulge with Pakistan but geopolitics & pakistan's revenge politics dosent leave us & Pakistan & pakistnies have a neusence value as you can never be fuuly confident that they wont do anything stupid & thats priciesly why we have to invest so much on owr western frontier

Had India been undivided we would have been almost in the same state as most of the pakistanies are ..without proper food , education & health not much different than beruit cause muslims can never live peacfully with any non muslims

You can see the same in britain aswell where muslims get the same as hindus & sikhs but instead of teaching there kids & being a responsible minority most of them indulge in raping young girls , terrorist activities & all saughts of crimes now i hope some muslims might get an answer why they lag behind hindus , sikhs & other minorieties even when all atarted there journey together whether it is India , UK , USA or any part of the world.......

Muslims serously need to ask it from themselfs..as they say its never too late..Thanks
 
but Muslims and Hindus living together in India. we always lived together and still living together. Indian Muslims are more successful than anyone in Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan combined. so you're wrong again.
Yes and Muslims are being slaughter in India on daily bases can't get education more than 90 % of them live under poverty can't eat many things because of Hindus
 
Glad to hear this. Please also convince the rest of India to forget about Pakistan, it will NEVER merge with India.
you are not the only one who is glad.. sarphire daadiwalon with kolaveri in their minds can be in pakistan
 
Glad to hear this. Please also convince the rest of India to forget about Pakistan, it will NEVER merge with India.

Partition was right and should not be undone. I also don't want a land who kept medieval system of Zagirdar, Wadera who keep serfs in their prison to merge with India.
 
Okay apologies in advance if someone has discussed this before but I'm a lazy foOk so I can't go through 12 pages worth of tantrums !

Forgive my insolence to suggest as such, but after going through numerous speeches of Jinnah, the works of Iqbal and the numerous works on either, I feel compelled to conclude that both the Secularists and the Islamists either truly fail to understand the Man as he was or they deliberately tell half-truths to reinvent him in their own image. The Islamic character of Pakistan is an undeniable thing and is ever present in Jinnah's words over and over again. The same Islamic character is ever present in Iqbal's works and the many things written by either's contemporaries who actually knew the man. However, what is also undeniable is Jinnah's deep, deep desire for impartiality and sense of justice for all.

Jinnah's Pakistan, as I have understood it to be, was supposed to be a progressive, liberal and democratic state with a dominant Islamic Culture. Which is to say a religiously and legally impartial and pluralistic society which is characterized by freedom for all and favors for none. However, before this gets misconstrued as Secularism, one must understand that in a Secular society any intrusion of religion into politics is politically blasphemous. And yet as Muslims, who believe in the Quran, there is a unique collective consciousness that Islam expects us to follow. That same Islam espouses some frameworks for Good Governance, for an Equitable Economic Model, for Jurisprudence and Standards of Propriety. All of these frameworks are exactly that; frameworks and little more; whatever came after them is an interpretation of theirs and hence manifests themselves in oft heard off words like Islamic Socialism, Modaraba, Islamic Welfare States, Names of the Schools of Islamic Jurisprudence and Opinions on Islamic Ethics and Morals etc. Hence, it wouldn't be unfair to say that Islam expects Muslims to incorporate some fundamental points in their Systems of Governance to bring them more in line with, what it perceives to be, a more fair and just system. In short, it tends to be hard for Muslims to obey the Quran when it talks about the obligation to pray, to fast, to give alms etc. and to ignore the same hallowed Scripture's injunctions when it talks about rooting out Rib'ah from our Economic Systems etc. Hence, Secularism in its 'Laicite' form maybe be unacceptable to Muslims whereby religion is not only ignored when it talks about societal injunctions but is also actively castigated. However, it is also an undeniable truth that Islam has been grossly abused and tainted by the actions of those who appeared to be some of her biggest proponents and as such, like all systems out there, this also has a massive potential for abuse.

What then did I mean when I said, previously, that Jinnah wanted a religiously and legally, impartial and pluralistic state ? I believe the legal impartiality and pluralism is self-evident but perhaps religious impartiality and pluralism needs a bit further exposition. I understood from Jinnah's many speeches, the 11th August one in particular, that his words echo, in a modern sense, the Prophet's Constitution of Medina. But what does religious impartiality means if not a Govt. without a religion of its own ? I believe that in itself is a fallacious argument because the Govt. is run by the People or more appropriately its elected Representatives and so whatever they do is what they Govt. does or doesn't do; and unless those elected Representatives can be devoid of religion the Govt. which is a reflection of their actions, would be crippled or elevated by the same prejudices or golden rules, those Governing would adhere to. And religious impartiality here implies a lack of discrimination on the basis of religion which is to say that the best man for the job gets to the top irrespective of their looks, genome type, religious or cultural affiliations. And yet the Islamic culture of Pakistan would be protected for that is the right of the Majority, though this will not come at the expense of trampling over the rights of our much cherished religious or ethnic minorities who must be given ample constitutional safeguards against their just apprehensions. If the Muslims want Shariah to dictate their laws and Islamic education to be taught to their Children, then so be it; but the Christians, the Hindus, the Sikhs, the Atheists etc. must have the right to be subjected to laws and education as per their own socio-political and economic belief system. So in essence religion will be treated like any other belief system out there that isn't hushed up when in an official or legislative capacity but integrated in the individual and communal affairs of the People, or in other words - Religious Pluralism, i.e if a Christian comes forth to table a resolution demanding incorporation of some aspect of Justinian Law in the laws that govern them or a Jew tabling a resolution demanding some changes to a by-law because it goes against some aspect of Talmudic Law, would be perfectly encouraged and not frowned upon ! In short God isn't personal only...he is also communal !

However, this poses another dilemma : Whose Islam ? Yours, Mine, Mullah Omar's...whose ? Iqbal in his 'Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam', delegates the responsibility of Ijtihad (Human Reasoning to form a legal opinion) and Ijma (Consensus of Opinion to form a legal opinion) not to the Ullema but to the Parliament since the modern day notion of a Nation-State and Citizenry has taken root. However, his conceptualization of Democracy has a meritocratic character to it in much the same way Singapore emphasis the worth of man to bring forth talented leaders. And lastly, for Iqbal and I believe Jinnah too the golden words of the Quran : There is no compulsion in religion, were a cornerstone of their philosophies on Governance.

Additionally, I can see that the Two Nation Theory (TNT if you will) has been talked about. Might I suggest that instead of going for the usual chest thumping by either side one might conduct an academic exercise to trace its origins and subsequent evolution since the backdrop of 1857 till Pakistan was created; for such an endeavor would be much more beneficial. Though I would try to describe briefly something on which countless millions of pages have been written and is, ironically enough, least understood by Pakistanis themselves; the TNT was, in short, an exclamation that Muslims have a unique collective consciousness of their own that they've derived from the Quran and the Sunnah and they should have the space to express it. If that had happened in India...there wouldn't be a Pakistan...but perhaps our fault lines were far too deep !

P.S We have indeed failed Jinnah, because Pakistan, as I understand it, was supposed to be a religiously and legally, impartial and pluralistic state, with strong constitutional guarantees against discrimination for all and a strong emphasis on freedom and good governance ! However this recent debate pitting one ism against the other is not only counterproductive it also completely side steps some of the bigger issues out there, because most of our problems stem not from the ideological nature of the State but by our abysmal Governance. The Old Pensioners who have to stand hours in line to collect their Pensions or the Women who are subjected to Honor Killings, are neither made worse off by the religiosity of the State nor would their suffering be elevated by its secularity. Take care of Governance and the rest will take care of itself !
 
But the question is -- Why didn't Mr Jinnah's own son refuse to join pakistan and stayed back in india?
 
But the question is -- Why didn't Mr Jinnah's own son refuse to join pakistan and stayed back in india?

Wasn't that his daughter?Anyway her decision paid well..Jinnah's grandson is a billionaire businessman in india.
 

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