Jinnah-Class Frigate: Pakistan Navy’s JF-17

[Zarvan]

Navy should work to develop universal VLS system which can be fitted in our future Frigates. From universal I mean those VLS which if mission requires can carry Cruise Missiles and if mission requires they can carry Air defence Missiles.

 

[ziaulislam]

Exactly. Even with the Turks, we won't be able to localize most of the inputs, but we'll be able to design the system and work with input suppliers directly. So, our frigates can use ship-grade steel from Turkey, engines from Germany, Chinese SAMs, locally designed electronics, and locally made anti-ship/land-attack missiles. We never had this level of control with any of our past programs, be it Agosta 90B, F-22P, etc.

My theory is that the 4th MILGEM -- i.e., 1st frigate -- will take 6-7+ years to design, build, launch and commission. KSEW and MTC have a lot to learn. However, once they complete the ship, that ship will be the basis of a next-gen mainstay frigate.

in order to build a local supplier network you need to have sustain orders..we have a habit of ignoring local products and going for off the shelf solutions...be it small arms(which people in backward KPK/bara can replicate), artillery guns, small missile boats..you name it..we buy it

Navy projects are the most expensive anywhere in the world.
Here "Pappu Bacchay" cry about usual defence budget , claiming that "Fauj Sara budget Khaa jaati hay".
And you are talking about billions in procurement budget.


What?
But why?


Until 1980s we exported ships to China.
The biggest ship built in Pakistan is still active.
The 17200 ton cargo carrying capacity ship MV Islamabad.
We have a habit of going backwards instead of forward.
View attachment 630162

the whole mindset changed in 1980s end..
all of sudden the ruling elite was racing with UAE to build a Pakistan based upon trade rather than manufacturing you saw big motorways built and manufacturing and all ingredients for that ignored..
this has been going on till 2018 with small hiatus in the early 2000s which led doubling of you exports from 2003 to 2011 but afterward ..it is the same policy kill exports & manufacturing..promote services and imports ...

i think it has to do with "kickbacks"...

 

[Gripen9]

yes..and french were offering the subparts necessary to build a sub at cost 500% of the original...when PN asked "hey we can buy new sub with this much high cost for sub-parts"..french said "of course" and pulled out a new scorpion design from their pocket "see here it is"..PN said.."you must be kidding me"..french said "ofcourse"

Rumor has it, The frenchies even stiffed Zardari on his "commission" which resulted in the hotel bombing in KHI killing DCN engineers.

 

[Imran Khan]

The 'ToT' on those submarines was basically the ability to assemble a submarine after importing all/majority of the components from France. There was no actual design ability or 'technology' transferred.

The difference between the French and the Turks is that (1) Pakistan now has a larger industrial base to absorb actual technology transfers (2) The Turks are actually assisting Pakistan with absorbing the ability to design our own ships & integrate various subsystems of our choice.

When we talk about 'ToT', we need to distinguish between being able to assemble imported kits vs the ability to manufacture all or part of the product in house and make design improvements in the future, to the existing baseline design or a 'from scratch' design.

yes..and french were offering the subparts necessary to build a sub at cost 500% of the original...when PN asked "hey we can buy new sub with this much high cost for sub-parts"..french said "of course" and pulled out a new scorpion design from their pocket "see here it is"..PN said.."you must be kidding me"..french said "ofcourse"

Navy projects are the most expensive anywhere in the world.
Here "Pappu Bacchay" cry about usual defence budget , claiming that "Fauj Sara budget Khaa jaati hay".
And you are talking about billions in procurement budget.


What?
But why?


Until 1980s we exported ships to China.
The biggest ship built in Pakistan is still active.
The 17200 ton cargo carrying capacity ship MV Islamabad.
We have a habit of going backwards instead of forward.
View attachment 630162

then why they wasted money for getting TOT ? why not simply order 3 subs and got them ?

 

[Beast]

Pakistan said no thank you and went for U boat but later switched to Chinese sub..dont know why..was it a cost issue ..probably.. doubt Chinese subs are as god as U boats

I doubt the french french scopene offered is better than the Chinese AIP sub not mentioning the cost is definitely much higher with no increase in advantage in tech.

The latest Chinese SSN is the world first shaftless attack sub using full electric propulsion system that significant reduced acoustic and used space inside. Far better than pumpjet used by western counterpart.

 

[MastanKhan]

PN will build nothing they have agosta-90b TOT since last 15 years what they build ????

Hi,

Just to get the TOT for an agosta 90 b class sub is an achievement in itself---and then to work along the french on that project---.

That knowledge and information takes our way of thinking and dealing with mechanical problems to a next higher level even if we did not manufacture another sub---.

Our maintenance costs come down---we can fix some of the critical equipment that we had needed foreign help prior to that---we can sit on the table with the team that is re-furbishing these submarines and have critical knowledgeable input on the project---.

Simply put---the knowledge has been gained---we might have built a couple of three modern mini subs---.

We had a greater input in the chinese subs that are being for up---.

 

[ziaulislam]

then why they wasted money for getting TOT ? why not simply order 3 subs and got them ?

so your engineers can atleast learn how to put together a sub...and some of the money goes back into the economy..

maintenance depot-->assembly--->full assembly--subparts-->indepedent manufacturing--->independent deisgn

cant skip this process.. The problem is we routinely stop at assembly..

 

[LKJ86]

maintenance depot-->assembly--->full assembly--subparts-->indepedent manufacturing--->independent deisgn

cant skip this process..

Yep, it is a necessary process for latecomers, and "stand on giants' shoulders".

But it also doesn't mean that you can develop the competitive products finally. There is ruthless competition among many manufacturers in the world. No competitors would be waiting for you, and you need to run forward hardly for all the time. And everyone has to be ready to lose all they have input.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

including radars?

Pretty sure the first 3 Pakistani Milgems will have Aselsan's Smart-S 3D radars produced under license from Thales NL, with Turkish T/R modules. 4th Milgem may have a PK variant of CAFRAD that Turkey's been developing for the TF-2000.

 

[MastanKhan]

Yep, it is a necessary process for latecomers, and "stand on giants' shoulders".

But it also doesn't mean that you can develop the competitive products finally. There is ruthless competition among many manufacturers in the world. No competitors would be waiting for you, and you need to run forward hardly for all the time. And everyone has to be ready to lose all they have input.

View attachment 630506

Hi,

That item is very important---.

Pakistan got the TOT on french subs---when it was time to get the next batch---pakistan went for the German subs rather than the French Scorpene.

Why---if TOT was attained on a french sub why chose a different manufacturer.

 

[SİLAHDAR]

Bro's Are yours think about İ class AAW version ?

We can increase his vls's 16 to 32 and change mar-d x band behalf of smart-s space for same like a çafrad çfr x band role and one teirs plate to behalf of back fire control radar for çafrad umr s band role on the vertical position like that design ;

İ class cost is around 330 million dolar with this improvements his cost cant be more than 500 million dolar I think. 16x siper + 32x G-40 + 16x Atmaca + 1x gökdeniz or phalanx + 6x orka + 1x 76 mm nothing bad at all.

Very good for stop gap aaw position for Turkey or main aaw position for pakistan like countries. İt would be great partner with jinnah class .

With almost half price they can be better radar suite , air defence capability when compared Visakhapatnam-class destroyer and kolkata's of india.

 

[Danish saleem]

Navy projects are the most expensive anywhere in the world.
Here "Pappu Bacchay" cry about usual defence budget , claiming that "Fauj Sara budget Khaa jaati hay".
And you are talking about billions in procurement budget.


What?
But why?


Until 1980s we exported ships to China.
The biggest ship built in Pakistan is still active.
The 17200 ton cargo carrying capacity ship MV Islamabad.
We have a habit of going backwards instead of forward.
View attachment 630162

there was no commission involved in building ships in Pakistan. a bitter truth.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

A very very slow , slow process