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JF-17X- A Sino-Pakistani Stealth Fighter

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A comment underneath that article that will teach you something:
Posted by Semi-Lobster, 11:15 PM

I've read this article and from what it seems, it sounds like complete fanboy garbage. First of all, what is the 'source' for this source. Usually they mention CCTV or the People's Daily for this level of high level information, especially something that happened months ago. Secondly, Chengdu letting Russia having part of the pie? What does Chengdu have to gain from letting Russia into the JF-17 deal? And it just goes on! We expect France to export the M88-3? I've never read about any defence deal ever between China and France (Unless you consider Dassault's sale of the Mirage 2000 to the Republic of China, which actually only makes such a transfer more unlikely). Then on top of that, THALES, BAE Systems and Denel Aerospace are being contact to develop a HMS for this 'aircraft'? Chengdu has already developed a HMS, why waste time and money on turning the JF-17 into a flying mini-United Nations? The most utterly damaging part of the article that just plain proves this article can't be true is the claim of using the Vixen 500E AESA radar which would be INPOSSIBLE. Only last month the co-developed KAI/Lockheed-Martin F/A-50 project gave up on aquiring the Vixen 500E after the transfer was barred from sharing the T-50's source codes with non-US companies after nearly a DECADE of trying to aquire it. This is a jointly developed Korean/American aircraft here. From a country who relies heavily on the US for mutual defence, stations and cooperates with thousands of US troops station in it and maintains excellent relations with it. Yet you're telling me that in a few short months that the US is willing to sell their most advance radar systems to a country that it won't even sell new F-16s to and on an aircraft jointly developed by Russia and China? Then it talks about carrying these 'PL-13' SRAAM and 'PL-14' LRAAM with the help of Denel!? That doesn't even make any sense? I've never heard of these missile programs, you can't just develop a missile at the drop of a hat. China is already developing a long range missile itself anyway! The PL-21, why would it develop a second one!? This entire thing reads like a bad fanfiction.

Compare it to an F-22, it doesn't even LOOK stealthy.
 
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Defence Aviation: JF-17X- A Pakistani Stealth Fighter
JF-17X << Comparable to F-35

From an engineering perspective, you could, maybe, somehow soup up a Corolla to compete with a Bugatti Veyron, but it would kill the Corolla and burn huge holes in your pocket. This blog can't possibly be true. It goes against everything the JF-17 project stands for.

As for Chinese and Pakistani ambitions for fifth generation capability, that topic has been beaten to death without much concrete information coming forth. The Chinese are definitely planning something (surely), but let's wait and watch. Making any statements about it right now will only make me sound foolish.

Edit

Obviously, the picture isn't real. Do you expect a model of the aircraft to be available immediately after the announcement of the project? The picture is as real as the "news", none.
 
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I am not a fighter plane buff, but that picture looks very close to Lockhead martin 5 gen plane. Lockhead plane is a multirole plan, meaning the application of the plane will be use as harrier, Navy with twin engines, Marines and Airforce with single engine. If I am wrong, my apologize.

I don't think this is chinese plane, it is a phote shop of lockhead martins plane with the chinese emblem.
 
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the JF17 is what it is and is very good in being do!!

let us not try to bring some thing super natural just out of patriotism!!

if there is a 5th generation plane for PAF on cards, it would be a new platform!

JF17 is a multirole fighter with good avionics and made to fill in the quantitative gap! i hope the project sticks to its goal. the comming blocks may get a bit stealthy with more use of composities, the avionics must alos improve but turning it into a fifth generation plae in impossible!

regards!
 
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i read sumwhere that jf17 is a world class plane. but adding stealth? seems a littile off. Russia also does not have stealth
 
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Well the picture aint real obviously; its CG; chinese are damn good at CG :woot: (personal experience)...

The JF-17 is a good aircraft in its current configuration; the blog is just fanboy stuff; and as hf786 quoted; the comment surely explains the problems...
 
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i read sumwhere that jf17 is a world class plane. but adding stealth? seems a littile off. Russia also does not have stealth


that the point, addind stealth of degree of F22 is not possible to make it a 5th generation plane, to accquire one, we have to build a new platform with stealth design, internal hardpoints, super avionics and engine and all that stuff makes a fifth generation!
as far as JF17 is cincerned, we may add some stealth by using more composities but it wont make it a fifth generation plane!!
i think that it can go as far as being a 4.5 generation plae if we use more composities, superior radar and more improved avionics. the weapon pay load must also be incresed to atleast 9! although all these changes require ime and money but i only stated that these are possible! may be in next blocks! may be after some 100 odd planes are flying and some positive responce is seen in export market!

i hope i have made my point clear and understandable, however tgis is only my opinion and you people can surely differ on this!!
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:cheers:
regards!
 
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that the point, addind stealth of degree of F22 is not possible to make it a 5th generation plane, to accquire one, we have to build a new platform with stealth design, internal hardpoints, super avionics and engine and all that stuff makes a fifth generation!
as far as JF17 is cincerned, we may add some stealth by using more composities but it wont make it a fifth generation plane!!
i think that it can go as far as being a 4.5 generation plae if we use more composities, superior radar and more improved avionics. the weapon pay load must also be incresed to atleast 9! although all these changes require ime and money but i only stated that these are possible! may be in next blocks! may be after some 100 odd planes are flying and some positive responce is seen in export market!

i hope i have made my point clear and understandable, however tgis is only my opinion and you people can surely differ on this!!
]
:cheers:
regards!

has jf17 reached 4.5th GEN yet? does PAF have any 4.5 th generation aircrafts?
 
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Is it easier to make a reduction in the frontal aspect rcs or top aspect rcs?

In frontal aspect you have engine inlets that needs to be reduced,radome and sharp points like wings.Reducing the cross section of them is difficult but their overall rcs is lower than the top aspect stealth. If you face directly to the enemy radar it will be late to pick you up but if a missile is coming to you and you maneuver you will expose non rcs reduced parts to enemy radar and rely on your jammers.

In top aspect reduction there is a large area on top of the plane to cover with ram that increase the expenses but the engine inlets of most planes are underside the plane(Mig 29, J 10, JF 17) and your job is reduced to handling the airframe geometry, giving angle to tail fins and ram. Radars will pick you up if you don't fly low but if a missile like amraam is launched, you can fly away from its line of sight while turning the upper camouflaged part of the plane against the incoming missile relying less on jammers and a towed decoy would probably suffice.
 
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Haven't the Boeing made the F-15 strike eagle into an F-15 silent eagle, why cant the same apply to JF-17. Though i do not agree with the blog article however the idea isnt far fetched about turning latter blocks of JF-17 into a stealth fighter.
 
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Haven't the Boeing made the F-15 strike eagle into an F-15 silent eagle, why cant the same apply to JF-17. Though i do not agree with the blog article however the idea isnt far fetched about turning latter blocks of JF-17 into a stealth fighter.

No chance. We should stop saying JF-17 will be made "stealthy," it seems to give the wrong idea. Instead, we should say there will be some minor modifications will be made to reduce radar signature.
 
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Is it easier to make a reduction in the frontal aspect rcs or top aspect rcs?
With the current aircraft technology, designs and shapings it is not possible to reduce top/bottom RCS. Basic radar principles tells us that surface area have a direct effect on aspect RCS value. However, there is one technique that can difuse reflected signals...

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With known behaviors of radar waves upon a surface, tapered conductivity would have the traveling wave be interupted and portions of the wave be discharged or to put it simplistically 'bounced' off the segmented surface. The B-2, F-22 or F-35 'may' have this technique applied to their designs...May have it.

:azn:

In frontal aspect you have engine inlets that needs to be reduced,radome and sharp points like wings. Reducing the cross section of them is difficult but their overall rcs is lower than the top aspect stealth. If you face directly to the enemy radar it will be late to pick you up but if a missile is coming to you and you maneuver you will expose non rcs reduced parts to enemy radar and rely on your jammers.
On the frontal aspect, the engines are the most problematic, far more than the radome, cockpit and leading edges of intake inlets and flight control surfaces combined. Moving surfaces, especially rapidly moving like jet engine blades or helo rotors, create a phenomenon called 'Doppler scintillation', much like spinning a propeller in front of a light source, then the wave superposition principle come into play where the reflection from each engine blade sum itself with the next blade and the next blade and the next blade and so on...All these signals then bounces around the inlet tunnel ending in an electronic flare that no receiver could miss. Reducing engine related radar reflectors should take precedent over other miscellanies. Unfortunately, this would require so much of a radical relocation of the engines that one might as well design another airframe.

In top aspect reduction there is a large area on top of the plane to cover with ram that increase the expenses but the engine inlets of most planes are underside the plane(Mig 29, J 10, JF 17) and your job is reduced to handling the airframe geometry, giving angle to tail fins and ram.
The current technology of Radar Absorbent Material are highly narrow in frequency bands.

There are four main types of passive absorbers:

1- Jaumann layering
2- Dallenbach layering
3- Salisbury screen

4- Analog circuit sheet

Basically, the first three are ferrite particles embedded in a liquid solution then painted or somehow applied to a surface. The distribution of those particles are not very finely controlled, hence their limited frequency range.

Here is an example of the drawbacks of those three...

Salisbury screen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There are a few disadvantages inherent to this model (some of which have been solved). One would be the fact that salisbury screens work well only for a very narrow portion of the radar spectrum thus making it very vulnerable to multiple radar protected areas. Another problem is the thickness of the screen itself, the radar wavelengths are between 10 cm and 1 mm, thus for a longer wavelength, the thickness gets up to 2.5 centimeters which is quite difficult to cope with (e.g., in aerospace applications). Thus, research is being conducted for ultrathin Salisbury screens involving the Sievenpiper HIGP (high impedance ground plane) (source: Wiley Periodicals, Inc., Microwave Opt. Technol. Lett.), which shows remarkable improvements to the thickness of the screen.

Item four has potential to make an aircraft a truly active RCS manipulation vehicle...

A smart radar absorber
This paper proposes a configuration for a smart radar absorber which is capable of both self-tuning and absorb while scan operation. The discussion is complemented by modelled and measured performance data.
Basically...The ferrite particles are somehow deposited into a material in a uniform formation. They can be of various sizes to affect different frequencies. They can even be in layers and be electrically charged, like a transistor, to either completely negate (or absorb) a radar signal, or to amplify (emit) a reflection so the aircraft can present itself to be something else, like an unmanned drone only a few meters long electronically masquerading as a B-52. This is not science fiction. Photolithography technology in the semiconductor industry, which I currently hold employment, is very applicable to active RCS manipulation. This is one step up from jamming, part of which is about brute force overpowering a reflected signal off a body. The US is currently actively engaging in active RCS manipulation technology, not only for the current generation of 'stealth' aircrafts, but also for the next evolution. Keep in mind that this would require appropriate computational power as the enemy would undoubtedly employ frequency agility tactics and the response would have to be in picoseconds to deny him any coherent radar returns and that an aircraft has limited internal space for avionics. So the more miniaturized the core computers, the more capable the avionics and the 'stealthier' the aircraft.

The F-117 relied upon angled facetings to have some measure of control on radar signals. That was a 1970s technology design where engineers were still adept with the sliderule. The B-2, F-22 and F-35 were designed with supercomputers that calculate nuclear explosions. Curved surfaces required far more computational power and knowledge of radar wave behaviors to produce a consistently low RCS design. Radar waves behave differently on a curved surface than on a planar surface. On a planar surface, most of the signal reflects. But on a curved surface, the wave does what is called a 'creeping wave' effect...

Creeping wave - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
According to the principle of diffraction, when a wave front passes an obstruction, it spreads out into the shadowed space. A creeping wave, in electromagnetism or acoustics is the wave that is diffracted around the shadowed surface of a smooth body such as a sphere.

Creeping waves greatly extend the ground wave propagation of long wavelength (low frequency) radio. They also cause both of a person's ears to hear a sound, rather than only the ear on the side of the head facing the origin of the sound. In radar ranging, the creeping wave return appears to come from behind the target.

Vladimir **** made important contributions to the understanding and calculation of creeping waves. They are described by Airy functions.
In other words, if you cannot or refuse to master angled facetings, the most basic of RCS reduction techniques, odds are good that whatever designs you produce will be just as visible to the F-22 and its brethens as if you had produce a 'non-stealth' design. This is why those who have relevant experience and knowledge about radar and avionics chuckled at how the Russians and the Chinese rushed to the media proclaiming their versions of 'stealth' aircrafts.
 
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No chance. We should stop saying JF-17 will be made "stealthy," it seems to give the wrong idea. Instead, we should say there will be some minor modifications will be made to reduce radar signature.

And why not? I have given the example of F-15, can you provide the same to back your claim up. Let me tell you something it all comes down to your economy, if the economy can sustain, we can have a stealth version of the JF-17.
 
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And why not? I have given the example of F-15, can you provide the same to back your claim up. Let me tell you something it all comes down to your economy, if the economy can sustain, we can have a stealth version of the JF-17.


A couple of things come to mind.

Firstly, F-15 is no where as "stealth" a plane as a F-22. Why, shape..because rounded shapes aren't the smartest way to reduce RCS.

Secondly, size. A F-15 is a huge plane which means enough space to create an internal weapons bay to carry a meaningful number of armaments. You don't want a "mini-internal weapons bay" to carry just one AMRAAM on each side.

The amount of changes needed to make it a complete "stealth " airplane will be quite significant and will cost a lot. Its not with a reason that F-22 and F-35 development cost are in the tens of billions.

The best possible way is to introduce more stealthy features to further reduce RCS like reducing reflection from canopy, perhaps a twin-tail if it helps, introduce more advanced avionics and ECM, find ways to reduce IR signature, develop better missiles, etc.

Yes, if you have enough money , you can develop something like a F-15SE by changing some shape, internal bays, etc but I do not think the F-15SE is a stealth fighter. They just reduced the RCS significantly which is very good thing and if possible they concept should also be translated to the JF-17.

I doubt however, that JF-17 will have an internal weapons bay. By the time it does, it would be another aircraft entirely because you will need to increase the size and make it into a medium weight category atleast.

My $0.02.
 
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