JF-17X- A Pakistani Stealth Fighter

[PAFAce]

Ignore it bro, that picture is just an F-35 edited to look like JF-17. That "news" is trash, nothing more. JF-17 will never become a 5th gen fighter, but no need for PAF fans to worry - China and Pak. have it covered You should hear something about it by 2012 according to inside sources.

MZUBAIR bhai, you should be careful about quoting stuff from Wikipedia. You know that Planned Upgrades section you quoted? I know the person that wrote it - he is not an expert! If you like, you can go to wikipedia and change it to say whatever you like - anyone can, so it is not considered a reliable source.

Thanks man, but after the Mirage-2000 post, I have a hard time believing any 'news' on this forum. I do find that it's a great place to debate and discuss, and gain knowledge. This is why I wrote the above post, to start a debate on whether it is even reasonable/possible to try and upgrade a plane like the JF-17 to 5th gen status. Upgrades are certain, I don't expect PAF to just operate the same plane for the next 20 years, but I don't think there will be such a huge leap, ever.

Continuing with the topic, is it possible that Pakistan and China are taking a similar approach to 5th gen air combat as the Americans, i.e., development of 2 5th-gen aircrafts simultaneously, one for air superiority and one multirole. That would explain the 15 million different designations I have heard about the famous JXX (J-12, J-13, J-14, J-15, J-17).

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Dont be upset guys. such bogus news like DAWN clip that PAF will acquire "5th generation FC-20 from china" and now this "JF-17 5th generation news" just kills every possible news reputation. the most we can get from current JF-17 is a advance version compareable to F-16 block 52 and only a 4.5 generation features could be expected from later JF-17 blocks.

 

[Quwa]

Dont be upset guys. such bogus news like DAWN clip that PAF will acquire "5th generation FC-20 from china" and now this "JF-17 5th generation news" just kills every possible news reputation. the most we can get from current JF-17 is a advance version compareable to F-16 block 52 and only a 4.5 generation features could be expected from later JF-17 blocks.

Once JF-17 has AESA, HMDS, 5th gen WVRAAM, ramjet BVRAAM (like MBDA Meteor) etc, it will already be a 4+ generation fighter. Goes without saying that internal upgrades of such a scale will occur, the key issue is the airframe. On PakDef there is talk of acquiring the Snecma M88 turbofan for JF-17; but the current M88 engines are underpowered, so we may see M88-3. Beyond this we can expect greater use of composites to decrease weight and raise TWR. Extended range and payload should also be expected.

It would be interesting if Thales offers a variant of their SPECTRA (used on Rafale) for JF-17's ECM/EW requirements. Sagem has already offered the Gerfaut HMDS and AASM alongside MBDA's MICA-IR/RF. It's reported that PAF is considering a ramjet BVRAAM like Meteor and was also offered AESA by several sources for use on JF-17.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Ignore it bro, that picture is just an F-35 edited to look like JF-17. That "news" is trash, nothing more. JF-17 will never become a 5th gen fighter, but no need for PAF fans to worry - China and Pak. have it covered You should hear something about it by 2012 according to inside sources.

MZUBAIR bhai, you should be careful about quoting stuff from Wikipedia. You know that Planned Upgrades section you quoted? I know the person that wrote it - he is not an expert! If you like, you can go to wikipedia and change it to say whatever you like - anyone can, so it is not considered a reliable source.

Okay brother

 

[Super Falcon]

i dont see any jf 17 stealth will be made ever becoz of design of jf 17

 

[MZUBAIR]

There are some stealthy features in 4.5th generation.
Do u think even JF-17 cannot touch that ?

 

[iamunique]

I feel that the JF-17 aircraft will not morph into JF-17X, but I believe that the
JF-17 design can/will definitely evolve into something more futuristic if Pakistan
so desires. Allow me to quote the example of the MCA currently on the boards in India,
though a new aircraft altogether, the design borrows heavily from the LCA.

What I'm saying is that while there will might not be an aircraft called 'JF-17 Stealth Fighter', there might be another aircraft called 'JF-23 Stealth fighter' which might look a little like the JF-17X(as shown in the initial post on this thread) and would have borrowed quite a few things from the JF-17, but will be a new aircraft altogther. And that new aircraft can definitely be a 5th generation.

On the other hand, whats stopping a current model JF-17 into being converted into something stealthy? Let's remember that most of the aircraft nowadays are run by sophisticated fly-by-wire systems which are advanced enough to compensate for any minor deficiencies in the design (they can even make a washing machine fly I guess!!) and also the digital data structure of current aircraft are also built to be expandable.

So considering the above why can't a few radar-deflecting curves be added to the current JF-17 aircraft and a few more tinkering here & there to turn the current JF-17s into JF-117s. Huh? could some engineers offer their thoughts?

 

[mean_bird]

Once JF-17 has AESA, HMDS, 5th gen WVRAAM, ramjet BVRAAM (like MBDA Meteor) etc, it will already be a 4+ generation fighter. Goes without saying that internal upgrades of such a scale will occur, the key issue is the airframe. On PakDef there is talk of acquiring the Snecma M88 turbofan for JF-17; but the current M88 engines are underpowered, so we may see M88-3. Beyond this we can expect greater use of composites to decrease weight and raise TWR. Extended range and payload should also be expected.

It would be interesting if Thales offers a variant of their SPECTRA (used on Rafale) for JF-17's ECM/EW requirements. Sagem has already offered the Gerfaut HMDS and AASM alongside MBDA's MICA-IR/RF. It's reported that PAF is considering a ramjet BVRAAM like Meteor and was also offered AESA by several sources for use on JF-17.

Wouldn't all those gadgetry increase the price of the JF-17 to prohibitive levels?

I assume only the last two or so batches will go for an aesa radar and really all the top gadgets because of the increase in cost. French things are also ridiculously expensive.

btw, which aesa do you guys envision? the RBE2 (or its variant)? or possibly some new radar by galeilo (whatever the spelling is?)

 

[TOPGUN]

Well wat ever the case smi or fully stealth we need this it is music to my ears right now!!

 

[bernard]

pakistan wont be getting any stealth fighter before 2025
there are some specific reasons to it,
recently china and russia signed a memorandum of cooperation in advanced military technology fields,
this means that china if it anyhow gets a stealth fighter from russia,it wont be before 2015,becoz thats the period the russians would be unveiling pakfa,which china wont get before 2020,
which when it reverse engineers ,may take 5-10 yrs to deliver to pakistan.
chna has not made even a 4th gen fighter jet without input of foreign designs

what seems possible is that china may develop a stealthy uav in between,but not a fighter.

 

[z9-ec]

Folks, this news was published by a Malaysian defence magazine known as Tempur in it's February, 2008 edition.

The air chief has mentioned numerous upgrade plans for future JF-17 blocks as mentioned by members before.

 

[araz]

With the twin tail configuration, use of compposites, JF17 will further reduce its RCS. However, it will certainly not become a fifth generation fighter. It is a simple fighter which was designed for quick induction and export to countries which want to repplace their J7s. It is a testament to ingenuity of the PLAN, and PAF engineers which has made this fighter into a 4th generation fighter. With slightly better engine and avionics, it will become a4.5generation fighter , but that woudl be the limit of its development, as far as I have understood it.
Iwill be happy to be proven wrong though.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[Destructlord]

Gief us so we can Reverse engineering them!

 

[Quwa]

Wouldn't all those gadgetry increase the price of the JF-17 to prohibitive levels?

I assume only the last two or so batches will go for an aesa radar and really all the top gadgets because of the increase in cost. French things are also ridiculously expensive.

btw, which aesa do you guys envision? the RBE2 (or its variant)? or possibly some new radar by galeilo (whatever the spelling is?)

Not necessarily "prohibitively" expensive. The first 50 will be equipped with RD-93 and Chinese goods, but subsequent batches may boast the AESA. It depends when Europe rolls out their light fighter AESA concepts, but a number of companies did make formal offers to PAF during IDEAS 2008. I think the same would apply to the engine if PAF is indeed looking at M88-3. While it may sound expensive, not that these upgrades to the huge extent may be necessary in the long run. Other than IAF, the PAF may have to contend with much bigger powers, hence wide spread potency is a must. Standardization and logistical ease is another issue, best to ensure the JF-17s are all identically equipped.

 

[mean_bird]

Not necessarily "prohibitively" expensive. The first 50 will be equipped with RD-93 and Chinese goods, but subsequent batches may boast the AESA. It depends when Europe rolls out their light fighter AESA concepts, but a number of companies did make formal offers to PAF during IDEAS 2008. I think the same would apply to the engine if PAF is indeed looking at M88-3. While it may sound expensive, not that these upgrades to the huge extent may be necessary in the long run. Other than IAF, the PAF may have to contend with much bigger powers, hence wide spread potency is a must. Standardization and logistical ease is another issue, best to ensure the JF-17s are all identically equipped.

I am not doubting their unavailability. I know it mentions in the IDEAS 2008 that AESA radar is on offer (btw, any idea which one? could be more than one because it states "AESA radar of different makes ...") . One option that comes to mind is the RBE2, which according to pshamim is being considered. (I know its PESA but I read somewhere its got an AESA version too, or perhaps in the near future).

But if we consider a batch to consist of 50 aircrafts and the first batch will have 50 leaving 200 more. Are you saying 200 JF-17s are going to have the AESA radar? I can wish so but I ready doubt that. An AESA radar isn't that cheap. Personally, I don't think more than two batches (not necessarily the last 2) would go for the AESA radar.

Which takes me to a new point: Since PAF always knew its gonna buy the JF-17 and we always knew we need some good fighter soon, why didn't we start negotiations for a radar sooner? I mean once the nose and other stuff was finalized we could have gone for a better radar in the first batch if we eventually need an AESA.