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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

Hur jet is trainer light attack not jft category
It's k8 level and not operational ....

And we are supplying 50 or 100 of those """"co produced """"" mushak to turkey ....
What than it says about their design abilities ??

You guys look at dialogue more than results it seem
call it whatever you want, both are similar in dimensions and is far, far, far, far more advanced than the K8, no comparison to evenbe considered there

Turks procuring 52 mushaks means nothing about their design abilities, it means it was cheaper and more effective to buy a proven Swedish design that was upgraded in Pakistan and induct it. They could develop their own if it was sensible without a challenge.


We dont look at dialogue, we look at result, otherwise we would be exporting big time to Turkey, Turkey would be buying from us, instead, its the other way around.
 
call it whatever you want, both are similar in dimensions and is far, far, far, far more advanced than the K8, no comparison to evenbe considered there

Turks procuring 52 mushaks means nothing about their design abilities, it means it was cheaper and more effective to buy a proven Swedish design that was upgraded in Pakistan and induct it. They could develop their own if it was sensible without a challenge.


We dont look at dialogue, we look at result, otherwise we would be exporting big time to Turkey, Turkey would be buying from us, instead, its the other way around.



And yet to have its first flight .


It's a 2 seater trainer . Can be fitted for light attack like k8


Don't get me me wrong

I love Turks I wish they have their 5678 generation before our 5th



This is the plane which you think will beat jft .

I don't think you can fit a radar in that nose
 
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They buy their basic trainers from Pakistan you know that??
They have got the Hurjet which was only launched a few years back. It's maiden flight will be later this year.

It will be better than Mushak. I don't think the reason for purchase was due to any inability to build something similar on their side.

Not to forget the delta-canard stealth UCAV which they are also working on.


Turks are ahead of us
 
They have got the Hurjet which was only launched a few years back. It's maiden flight will be later this year.

It will be better than Mushak. I don't think the reason for purchase was due to any inability to build something similar on their side.

Not to forget the delta-canard stealth UCAV which they are also working on.


Turks are ahead of us


They are doing wonders in UAVs .

Most of these projects are yet to fly .will take years of testing

Hur jet is jet trainer similar to k8 . Mashak is basic trainer propeller aircraft .

They decided to buy American trainers and build Hur jet. K,8 is designed in ,80s so need to be upgraded any ways so wasn't a competition. Though nearly all middle east use k8 as their jet trainer ....


You guys don't even know difference of jet to propeller aircraft but are pretty sure who shud we part with making a stealth fighter


Amazing
 
They are doing wonders in UAVs .

Most of these projects are yet to fly .will take years of testing

Hur jet is jet trainer similar to k8 . Mashak is basic trainer propeller aircraft .

They decided to buy American trainers and build Hur jet. K,8 is designed in ,80s so need to be upgraded any ways so wasn't a competition. Though nearly all middle east use k8 as their jet trainer ....
Why do you think Pakistan is ahead? Because of JF-17? That entire project seems like it was carried by China
 
Why do you think Pakistan is ahead? Because of JF-17? That entire project seems like it was carried by China

That's because China carried it; name a single contribution the Pakistanis made that advanced its industry after being a JV to the project besides the funding. Let me give you a hint an ex-F16 pilot who failed even to provide proper ground clearance and less loadout than the F-16. It's like driving a BMW, and you come out with a Daewoo.
 
Hur jet is jet trainer similar to k8
Low IQ statement.
(They're drastically different. Average guy can tell by just looking at them.)
I don't think you can fit a radar in that nose
A simple Google search can answer that query don't stress your brain too much.
You guys don't even know difference of jet to propeller aircraft but are pretty sure who shud we part with making a stealth fighter
Ok Mr.
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an ex-F16 pilot who failed even to provide proper ground clearance and less loadout than the F-16.
Ever lower IQ statement.
 
Let me give you a hint an ex-F16 pilot who failed even to provide proper ground clearance and less loadout than the F-16. It's like driving a BMW, and you come out with a Daewoo.
Can you give more details about this? I'm not too familiar about what went down during the project and our input apart from the requirements needed in the aircraft.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD How much did the JF-17 project actually help develop our local industry?

Even if we don't take it to a semi-stealth or full stealth level, shouldn't we be trying to indigenise all the parts and manufacturing capabilities over time? So our local industry and know-how can grow
 
Openly stated to share engine research is by instituition. The UK state can easily interfere by a decree to outlaw any sales or cooperation with Turkey once US gives the command. Are you saying Roll Royce can overwrite UK parliament order? Prove it instead of cheap talk.
You prove it - you’re the one coming up with hypothetical scenarios of the UK state interfering. Do you have historical context with respect to Turkey other than the F-35 saga of technology being denied?

Heck, the US couldn’t stop Israel from supplying Turkey against greek wishes

That's because China carried it; name a single contribution the Pakistanis made that advanced its industry after being a JV to the project besides the funding. Let me give you a hint an ex-F16 pilot who failed even to provide proper ground clearance and less loadout than the F-16. It's like driving a BMW, and you come out with a Daewoo.
To the project or industry?
I can name multiple contributions to the JF-17 project that the Chinese had not even thought of and ended up incorporating in the J-10B program

Can you give more details about this? I'm not too familiar about what went down during the project and our input apart from the requirements needed in the aircraft.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD How much did the JF-17 project actually help develop our local industry?

Even if we don't take it to a semi-stealth or full stealth level, shouldn't we be trying to indigenise all the parts and manufacturing capabilities over time? So our local industry and know-how can grow
The damaged F-16 repaired in house was directly done with both knowledge and infrastructure gained from the JF-17 program
 
You prove it - you’re the one coming up with hypothetical scenarios of the UK state interfering. Do you have historical context with respect to Turkey other than the F-35 saga of technology being denied?

Heck, the US couldn’t stop Israel from supplying Turkey against greek wishes


To the project or industry?
I can name multiple contributions to the JF-17 project that the Chinese had not even thought of and ended up incorporating in the J-10B program


The damaged F-16 repaired in house was directly done with both knowledge and infrastructure gained from the JF-17 program

In-house contribution to our industry. Remember the Agosta? Pak Navy squandered its gains and didn't do anything with the know-how. Even current projects are facing issues.
 
Can you give more details about this? I'm not too familiar about what went down during the project and our input apart from the requirements needed in the aircraft.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD How much did the JF-17 project actually help develop our local industry?

Even if we don't take it to a semi-stealth or full stealth level, shouldn't we be trying to indigenise all the parts and manufacturing capabilities over time? So our local industry and know-how can grow

"How much did the JF-17 project actually help develop our local industry?"

None...


sort of. The most development we saw was a joint development of a HMDS with a Chinese company in the future. Yes, thats right, that is the local experience we recieved. Radars i dont think have much to do with the JF-17 program, rather these had been on the PAFs menu for some time and were done independently and funded well which is an important aspect. Beyond that, the project created jobs, thats about all i can think of. A little anecdote, there is a fella who runs the avionics production factory, I met him in dubai, we were talking about what we do and he mentioned to me how they were struggling to produce avionics on time as CATIC would hold part numbers for components as sometimes they needed specific parts but CATIC would sell them kits as opposed to specific prts, thus driving cost and timelines up, so they were struggling and needed to find an alternative supplier ASAP. Wanna guess what the components were? Connectors and wiring. Decades and hundreds of millions of dollars later, we could not find a local supplier to deliver wiring harnesses to bloody PAC. HIT is the example to follow if you want a good example.
 
Can you give more details about this? I'm not too familiar about what went down during the project and our input apart from the requirements needed in the aircraft.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD How much did the JF-17 project actually help develop our local industry?

Even if we don't take it to a semi-stealth or full stealth level, shouldn't we be trying to indigenise all the parts and manufacturing capabilities over time? So our local industry and know-how can grow
No fighter project creates or develops an industry.

It's the other way around.

The industry develops the fighter.

So, the JF-17 is more of an outcome of the Chinese industry. However, in Pakistan, we built a capacity to support fighter production towards the end of the chain, e.g., manufacturing, assembly, integration, testing, etc.

These are all useful additions for PAC, but they're not enough to conceive a new fighter from scratch; for that, you need an industry that provides steel, composite materials, gas turbines, electronics, etc.

The right thing to do was that in parallel to the JF-17, we should've invested in those critical inputs. Imagine if we had properly started work across aircraft-grade steel, composites, gas turbines, electronics, etc, in 1992. So, in 30 years, we would've developed some capacity to support an original fighter project from an industrial perspective.

This is what India did with the Tejas. Yes, while the Tejas project itself didn't materialize as originally hoped, India developed many critical industries along the way. If it gets the project management side right, India will succeed with its ORCA, TEDBF, and AMCA. Likewise, Turkey had done the same thing when it first started manufacturing F-16s on license in the 1980s and 1990s.
 
In-house contribution to our industry. Remember the Agosta? Pak Navy squandered its gains and didn't do anything with the know-how. Even current projects are facing issues.
There was in house contribution but the question is what industry was it focused on?
The problem isn’t just current projects - in Pakistani culture Human Resources are considered disposable and the assumption is that copy paste Engineer B can take over work by Engineer A easily and continue at the same level.

Knowledge base is transferred only by select “celebrities” in the industry and the rest are human cogs. The result is the talent never nurtures and leaves taking with it the capability to innovate.
 
The right thing to do was that in parallel to the JF-17, we should've invested in those critical inputs. Imagine if we had properly started work across aircraft-grade steel, composites, gas turbines, electronics, etc, in 1992. So, in 30 years, we would've developed some capacity to support an original fighter project from an industrial perspective.
True, we wasted a lot of time in that regard

So shouldn't that be our next step for the JF-17 now, to indigenise the avionics, sensors, electronics, manufacturing, etc, so a mature local industry and supply chain can be created?

Do we have plans for this? Like a local radar etc in the JF-17 and manufacturing close to 100% of the airframe in Pakistan.

And isn't the jump to the 5th gen a wide gap for a small and new industry?
 

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