JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[CriticalThought]

I am not sure what makes you believe that PAF will not be breaking the target acquisition chain of S400s, and what makes you believe they'd even let the Indians operate the S400s closer to the border, without being threatened?

As for the kind of LFEs scenarios that you're putting up, that's nothing new, PAF did the same on 27th of Feb. Without going into many details, simply hurling missiles does not work in real life. Simple hiding behind SAMs does not work in real life. PAF has options amongst the SOW armament that range from 60KM to 600KMs (in public view) in range, for targetting the other side.

And the kind of saturation attacks that you're talking about, every base would need more than 30-40 Brahmos picking up targets (not decoys) with pinpoint accuracy across the board, in order to be successful. IAF would require multiple hundreds of such missiles in order to perform a successful saturation strike against PAF - that too with the PAF sleeping on the wheel.

It's not my scenario, why are you arguing with me? Somebody else proposed a massive saturation strike.

With that in mind, your argument about breaking kill chain is out of context. You have got to be dumb if you think 'hurling missiles' means simply hurling missiles. You have got to be dumb if you think LRSAMs do not change the battlescape, or that enemy fighters cannot stay behind such a virtual fence. And you have to be dumb if you think slow moving cruise missiles that we currently have are an appropriate response to massive strikes of supersonic Brahmos.

By the way, India has 500 billion dollars in the bank in hard cash. It can bring a very large number of Brahmos into play.

 

[kursed]

It's not my scenario, why are you arguing with me? Somebody else proposed a massive saturation strike.

With that in mind, your argument about breaking kill chain is out of context. You have got to be dumb if you think 'hurling missiles' means simply hurling missiles. You have got to be dumb if you think LRSAMs do not change the battlescape, or that enemy fighters cannot stay behind such a virtual fence. And you have to be dumb if you think slow moving cruise missiles that we currently have are an appropriate response to massive strikes of supersonic Brahmos.

By the way, India has 500 billion dollars in the bank in hard cash. It can bring a very large number of Brahmos into play.

No one is suggesting that the battle won't change shape, with the presence of S400s. But you're referring to it as a silver bullet screening solution, that'd exist b/w IAF and PAF. That it will not be. As for the rest, I am not sure you have any idea about real-world scenarios. Sorry that I opted to play.

 

[CriticalThought]

No one is suggesting that the battle won't change shape, with the presence of S400s. But you're referring to it as a silver bullet screening solution, that'd exist b/w IAF and PAF. That it will not be. As for the rest, I am not sure you have any idea about real-world scenarios. Sorry that I opted to play.

Repeat after me. Training makes strategies actually work. Training makes strategies actually work. Training makes strategies actually work. If IAF properly trains to field LRSAMs against a weakened PAF, it can wreak havoc. Did you read the 'weakened PAF' part? Did you realize that in my posts above I am discussing a doomsday scenario where an initial decapitation strike has already taken place? Did you read when I said you are out of context?

 

[kursed]

Repeat after me. Training makes strategies actually work. Training makes strategies actually work. Training makes strategies actually work. If IAF properly trains to field LRSAMs against a weakened PAF, it can wreak havoc. Did you read the 'weakened PAF' part? Did you realize that in my posts above I am discussing a doomsday scenario where an initial decapitation strike has already taken place? Did you read when I said you are out of context?

If I were to take your words literally, so as to suggest that IAF has taken PAF out on day one. Then one of the red lines stated by Pakistan in its strategic doctrine already spells it out in black and white; if a significant portion of its military has been taken out, Pakistan will go nuclear. There is no confusion on the subject.

 

[CriticalThought]

If I were to take your words literally, so as to suggest that IAF has taken PAF out on day one. Then one of the red lines stated by Pakistan in its strategic doctrine already spells it out in black and white; if a significant portion of its military has been taken out, Pakistan will go nuclear. There is no confusion on the subject.

Good. Now tell that to @Chak Bamu

 

[kursed]

Repeat after me. Training makes strategies actually work. Training makes strategies actually work. Training makes strategies actually work. If IAF properly trains to field LRSAMs against a weakened PAF, it can wreak havoc. Did you read the 'weakened PAF' part? Did you realize that in my posts above I am discussing a doomsday scenario where an initial decapitation strike has already taken place? Did you read when I said you are out of context?

The only part missing from your strategy-driven account is that the other side also comes to play. It's not just the Indians who are training to go against PAF. We spent 20 years listening to this one-sided, one system vs the other debate, and when the day came - the other side had no idea what hit it. This is not how aerial warfare works. And this would be my two cents on it. You folks can continue the A vs B debate.

On the day the two sides meet again, PAF would have prepared to go against S400s too.

 

[JamD]

IMO the missile mock-ups seem more like the MBDA ASMPA than the HD-1A.

I wonder if there's some at AHQ thought about pairing miniature nuclear warheads to supersonic-cruising missiles (akin to what France is doing with the ASMPA).

Just imaging pairing a twin-engine WS-10/AL-41-powered F-15-sized fighter (AZM ASR) with Ra'ad-2 and ASMPA-type missiles for the strategic role. Yikes.

View attachment 780528

Is..this..

SMASH?

 

[Chak Bamu]

Good. Now tell that to @Chak Bamu

You'll never catch me arguing with @kursed because I respect his intellect, knowledge, & wit.

What you missed was that I implied PAF would meet IAF head-on & at that point numbers would matter. You assumed that I meant that a saturation attack would wipe out PAF. It won't. I also said that I am not an expert in this scenario thing & that I would yield to more knowledgeable members to correct me if I am wrong. So, thanks for mentioning S-400; also thanks to @kursed for pointing out that S-400 is not a silver bullet. We can trust PAF.

 

[FuturePAF]

Your scenario is valid, but it is not taking into account Indian S-400/S-500. Now you have an intact IAF turning up in massive numbers hurling BVRs, while LRSAMs have been moved closer to the border. IAF can stay behind the SAMs and harass you. You need supersonic and hypersonic missiles to quickly strike them out. Fighter jets will not give you a fast turnaround when loaded with 2000+ kg missiles.

And again, all of this presumes there are enough fighters, runways, and infrastructure left after the first saturation attack. The IAF didn't just take out fighters on the ground, it destroyed your runways, ammo dumps, forward radars, command and control systems. You will quickly find out that you are in no shape to fight. It would be disingenuous for IAF to do anything less than this. Why would it initiate hostilities, only to leave enough of PAF to fight back?

Just like a considerable number of Awacs helped PAF achieve better situational awareness, the PAF should, IMHO, be focusing on EW in a big way. Dedicated EW platforms with each squadron, and the ability of each Fighter to carry not just EW pods, but EW Decoy Drones (like the Mald-J, perhaps one based on the Chinese II-150Y target drone) and towed decoys along with expendable decoys. It is the most cost effective way to keep enemy air to air and surface to air missiles at bay, while confusing the enemy to the point they can be surprised with the right strategy and tactics. This on top of 100s of possible motorway air fields, which should ‘t be that much of an issue, considering all the motorways being build in the country these days. Also, building cheap loyal wingmen drones should help even the numbers, especially in A2A missile numbers parity in an engagement.

perhaps the JF-17 Block 3 will also use some ram coating (possibly an older J-20 Ram coating that can now be exported) to reduce the RCS enough to force the enemy in closer to negate any advantage they may have (perceived or otherwise) with the Meteor.

Small differences, such as all those states above, can really add up.

 

[CriticalThought]

The only part missing from your strategy-driven account is that the other side also comes to play. It's not just the Indians who are training to go against PAF. We spent 20 years listening to this one-sided, one system vs the other debate, and when the day came - the other side had no idea what hit it. This is not how aerial warfare works. And this would be my two cents on it. You folks can continue the A vs B debate.

On the day the two sides meet again, PAF would have prepared to go against S400s too.

I have not a single doubt about this. Meanwhile, @Chak Bamu you need to share this pain.

You'll never catch me arguing with @kursed because I respect his intellect, knowledge, & wit.

What you missed was that I implied PAF would meet IAF head-on & at that point numbers would matter. You assumed that I meant that a saturation attack would wipe out PAF. It won't. I also said that I am not an expert in this scenario thing & that I would yield to more knowledgeable members to correct me if I am wrong. So, thanks for mentioning S-400; also thanks to @kursed for pointing out that S-400 is not a silver bullet. We can trust PAF.

Thanks, that clarifies things a lot. Yes, if PAF survives and is able to meet the adversary, the scenario completely changes. But then, my multi-purpose transports - SQ8 calls them HVAAs - will have their field day as well

 

[kursed]

You'll never catch me arguing with @kursed because I respect his intellect, knowledge, & wit.

What you missed was that I implied PAF would meet IAF head-on & at that point numbers would matter. You assumed that I meant that a saturation attack would wipe out PAF. It won't. I also said that I am not an expert in this scenario thing & that I would yield to more knowledgeable members to correct me if I am wrong. So, thanks for mentioning S-400; also thanks to @kursed for pointing out that S-400 is not a silver bullet. We can trust PAF.

Your point in itself is right too, PAF as of right now can fight better when it comes to short battles. Not an all out, drawn over a long time air war. But I doubt a long drawn war in our scenario is possible anymore, given the nuclear overhang.

 

[DJ_Viper]

Pl15+pl10 is standard bvr wvr combo on blk 3.
HD-1

Pakistan should acquire SD-10 ToT, build an "ER" version of it with longer range, and mass produce a SAM versions for land and sea. In fact increase it's supersonic speed as much as possible. I'd expect India to have some hypersonic weapons in the next 3-5 years. Brahmos is a good baseline to build upon further. Just like that, HD-1 or SD-10 ER could become a baseline for Pakistan to R&D getting closer to hypersonic speeds.

 

[SQ8]

Pakistan should acquire SD-10 ToT, build an "ER" version of it with longer range, and mass produce a SAM versions for land and sea. In fact increase it's supersonic speed as much as possible. I'd expect India to have some hypersonic weapons in the next 3-5 years. Brahmos is a good baseline to build upon further. Just like that, HD-1 or SD-10 ER could become a baseline for Pakistan to R&D getting closer to hypersonic speeds.

Pakistan will not spend a dime on a capability it can purchase.

 

[araz]

I have not a single doubt about this. Meanwhile, @Chak Bamu you need to share this pain.


Thanks, that clarifies things a lot. Yes, if PAF survives and is able to meet the adversary, the scenario completely changes. But then, my multi-purpose transports - SQ8 calls them HVAAs - will have their field day as well

I understand where you are coming from but given a full blown war your strategy requores redundency of such platforms, prior conversion for the purpose ( therefore time, money and effort plus skillsets which may or may not be there). The other thing none of us have factored in is the willingness of uncle Sam to let us modify the C130s for the purpose. I am uncertain of the clauses in the C130 sale which allow/do not allow us to do so. There can be other platforms (C235 comes to mind) but then again the same restricyions remain.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Your scenario is valid, but it is not taking into account Indian S-400/S-500. Now you have an intact IAF turning up in massive numbers hurling BVRs, while LRSAMs have been moved closer to the border. IAF can stay behind the SAMs and harass you

You are forgetting that PAF will also have Long range SAM plus Army has also shown interest in HQ 9.so if IAF has S400 as backup,PAF and PA will also have Long range SAMs