JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Chimgathar]

Guys This is JF-17 Thunder forum lets please stick to the topic

 

[CriticalThought]

Actually, many civilian scientists and engineers are more capable than their military counterparts. So they should be in charge.

Actually, that is totally wrong. Nobody should be given administrative positions just because they are better engineers and scientists. A better engineer/scientist DOES NOT make a better administrative. And you haven't really addressed any of my points.

 

[The Eagle]

Members, using inappropriate, abusive & unethical language are warned and banned from thread for specific time. If you want to add, share or learn about subject in hand; post with manners & ethics for constructive arguments and qualitative debate.

Regards,

 

[SQ8]

Actually, that is totally wrong. Nobody should be given administrative positions just because they are better engineers and scientists. A better engineer/scientist DOES NOT make a better administrative. And you haven't really addressed any of my points.

Neither does ranks or brass. Some of thr retired brass appointed to these positions have run departments into the ground and continue to do so.
Military leadership is a very overbloated merit since in the military leadership is expected regardless of whether it is good or not.
Your points about in service on the border or experience in the military are irrelevant to whether true leadership and administrative capacity exists. Just because you are part of an organization where leadership is a requirement, does not mean you have those qualities; in fact the ISSB is severely flawed in its administration of true EQ capacity for military service.

An example of poor military administration is the special projects division for Pakistan. A paranoid mindset along with a sense of superiority has left many of its mod level retired or transfer military appointments heading deparments they have no actual knowledge or even administrative capacity for. They are approving ridiculous purchases or projects either on buttering or conniving for profit. In other cases these ill informed personnel end up creating hurdles because they have no idea of the project at hand.
The military itself has its share of administrative burdens too, where bad appointments end up setting back units or departments by months or years.

That is not to say that the civilians do not have bad leadership as well, but the ratio is much less as civillians can be fired and especially in today’s Pakistan are more bound by merit than any military official is. You cannot fire an officer from armored whom you deem incompetent not to give command of a battalion, but you can post him to what is perceived to be a unimportant department; be it MeS where he may end up doing okay or really OK by corruption, or places like the ISI(yes, it is a dumping ground for the mediocre as well) or SPD where they usually cause much more havoc than good.

 

[messiach]

Nothing to add, you have spoken your heart out.
@Oscar @CriticalThought check your private email.
Thankyou.

Neither does ranks or brass. Some of thr retired brass appointed to these positions have run departments into the ground and continue to do so.
Military leadership is a very overbloated merit since in the military leadership is expected regardless of whether it is good or not.
Your points about in service on the border or experience in the military are irrelevant to whether true leadership and administrative capacity exists. Just because you are part of an organization where leadership is a requirement, does not mean you have those qualities; in fact the ISSB is severely flawed in its administration of true EQ capacity for military service.

An example of poor military administration is the special projects division for Pakistan. A paranoid mindset along with a sense of superiority has left many of its mod level retired or transfer military appointments heading deparments they have no actual knowledge or even administrative capacity for. They are approving ridiculous purchases or projects either on buttering or conniving for profit. In other cases these ill informed personnel end up creating hurdles because they have no idea of the project at hand.
The military itself has its share of administrative burdens too, where bad appointments end up setting back units or departments by months or years.

That is not to say that the civilians do not have bad leadership as well, but the ratio is much less as civillians can be fired and especially in today’s Pakistan are more bound by merit than any military official is. You cannot fire an officer from armored whom you deem incompetent not to give command of a battalion, but you can post him to what is perceived to be a unimportant department; be it MeS where he may end up doing okay or really OK by corruption, or places like the ISI(yes, it is a dumping ground for the mediocre as well) or SPD where they usually cause much more havoc than good.

 

[Quwa]

Neither does ranks or brass. Some of thr retired brass appointed to these positions have run departments into the ground and continue to do so.
Military leadership is a very overbloated merit since in the military leadership is expected regardless of whether it is good or not.
Your points about in service on the border or experience in the military are irrelevant to whether true leadership and administrative capacity exists. Just because you are part of an organization where leadership is a requirement, does not mean you have those qualities; in fact the ISSB is severely flawed in its administration of true EQ capacity for military service.

An example of poor military administration is the special projects division for Pakistan. A paranoid mindset along with a sense of superiority has left many of its mod level retired or transfer military appointments heading deparments they have no actual knowledge or even administrative capacity for. They are approving ridiculous purchases or projects either on buttering or conniving for profit. In other cases these ill informed personnel end up creating hurdles because they have no idea of the project at hand.
The military itself has its share of administrative burdens too, where bad appointments end up setting back units or departments by months or years.

That is not to say that the civilians do not have bad leadership as well, but the ratio is much less as civillians can be fired and especially in today’s Pakistan are more bound by merit than any military official is. You cannot fire an officer from armored whom you deem incompetent not to give command of a battalion, but you can post him to what is perceived to be a unimportant department; be it MeS where he may end up doing okay or really OK by corruption, or places like the ISI(yes, it is a dumping ground for the mediocre as well) or SPD where they usually cause much more havoc than good.

It's interesting. When my dad retired from the PAF and QEAF, he joined the Western defence industry (won't be giving specific org names for obvious reasons) and mentioned how he'd been waking up at the same time as he was at the peak of his PAF career, yet coming home/sleeping much, much later.

He'd say, "in the PAF, you had a job, and if you did that job well then the job was done, though some of us would try to push the boundary and get more out of the task... in the industry, pushing the boundary was part of the job."

Returning to the JF-17. We all bemoaned about how difficult it is to get a HMD/S due to the control the Israelis have on the market. Yet between now and 2006, no one made HMD/S a real project on our end, despite its necessity and inherent scale (hundreds of fighters).

 

[khanasifm]

This is jf thread please take topic of corruption and politics etc to respective thread

 

[Zulfiqar]

Pakistan is mostly following the Chinese model. We won't be seeing privatization of the strategic entities for a while now.

We need to see the history of how many of the entities started their operations.

At the time (90's and prior) their weren't many civilian engineers available considering limited universities that taught relevant subjects.

Officers from EME and other arms of army and airforce were sent on extra regimental employment to these organizations along with fresh grads from engineering universities. The Chinese helped in many of these entities in one way or another.

Officers from the military and civilian officers were/are also sent to China and other countries for higher studies.

That was 10-20 plus years ago. Now the same officers are in senior position. Some are even at the Sps equivalent of BPS 20 (if they have not retired already).

Military officers (apart from PAC) are in minority now. The newer lot is mostly civilian now.

Change is happening and slowly progress is happening in many of these organizations. However, it is slow due to prevailing old habits and due to less funding for R&D.

There are plenty of engineering universities now which will help PAC in expanding further. There are private entities that do provide services to PAC as well.

What we need badly is capital for R&D so that our base evolves to actual innovation rather than just license/unlicensed build.

We also need the work/management culture of Israelis in order to evolve further.

 

[LKJ86]

 

[Umair Nawaz]

I dont know why but whenever i try to imagine how @messiach would look in real life, this image comes to my mind

 

[denel]

It's interesting. When my dad retired from the PAF and QEAF, he joined the Western defence industry (won't be giving specific org names for obvious reasons) and mentioned how he'd been waking up at the same time as he was at the peak of his PAF career, yet coming home/sleeping much, much later.

He'd say, "in the PAF, you had a job, and if you did that job well then the job was done, though some of us would try to push the boundary and get more out of the task... in the industry, pushing the boundary was part of the job."

Returning to the JF-17. We all bemoaned about how difficult it is to get a HMD/S due to the control the Israelis have on the market. Yet between now and 2006, no one made HMD/S a real project on our end, despite its necessity and inherent scale (hundreds of fighters).

Absolutely, given this was available right at the time Altas's engineers were helping your folks on the Mirage programs with various capacities. It would have been a fait accompli but this is what I continue to lament about - lack of foresight in every aspect in the Mirage program.

 

[Windjammer]

 

[messiach]

thankyou.

I dont know why but whenever i try to imagine how @messiach would look in real life, this image comes to my mind

 

[Umair Nawaz]

thankyou.

aeroplane aunty!

 

[Bratva]

It's interesting. When my dad retired from the PAF and QEAF, he joined the Western defence industry (won't be giving specific org names for obvious reasons) and mentioned how he'd been waking up at the same time as he was at the peak of his PAF career, yet coming home/sleeping much, much later.

He'd say, "in the PAF, you had a job, and if you did that job well then the job was done, though some of us would try to push the boundary and get more out of the task... in the industry, pushing the boundary was part of the job."

Returning to the JF-17. We all bemoaned about how difficult it is to get a HMD/S due to the control the Israelis have on the market. Yet between now and 2006, no one made HMD/S a real project on our end, despite its necessity and inherent scale (hundreds of fighters).

Was your Dad by any chance F-16 Pilot ? And when retired served as an IP for QEAF ?