JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[CriticalThought]

I want to perform the following for JF-17 fully loaded configuration:

http://ausairpower.net/APA-2012-03.html

 

[DJ_Viper]

Managed to get some information from the top, this is the reply i got.

''For paper exercises NATO would always pick some non-NATO stuff as adversary''.

Or may be that's not the case and they are simulating potential adversaries? That's the purpose behind the Red Flag exercise at the least. I would imagine other countries do the same too. Like Pakistan does DACT with the Chinese SU's and ME Mirages to simulate Indian SU and Mirages?

I can see this being the case for the Chinese jets. Not sure about the JF-17 though. That's interesting though.

I do have a question for you though. Why does Pakistan not add KLJ types of Radars to its most recent batch of F-7PG's? Because with small mods, that plane can carry two BVR's, giving it a much bigger punch and force multiplication capability, than the two PL-5's it carries right now. Do you know the real reason behind it?

 

[The SC]

Because its a very very varied figure
Each surface has its own rcs, each interactive kink its own return.

Radar Cross Section

The size and ability of a target to reflect radar energy can be summarized into a single term, σ, known as the radar cross-section, which has units of m². This unit shows, that the radar cross section is an area. If absolutely all of the incident radar energy on the target were reflected equally in all directions, then the radar cross section would be equal to the target's cross-sectional area as seen by the transmitter. In practice, some energy is absorbed and the reflected energy is not distributed equally in all directions. Therefore, the radar cross-section is quite difficult to estimate and is normally determined by measurement.

The target radar cross sectional area depends of:

• the airplane’s physical geometry and exterior features,
• the direction of the illuminating radar,
• the radar transmitters frequency,
• the used material types.

The use of stealth technology to reduce radar cross section increases the survivability and decreases the target detection of military aircraft. But the stealth technology depends of the used radar transmitters frequency and has none effect against VHF- radars like P–12 or P-18, both used by serbian air defense units during the Kosovo war.

Figure 1: the experimental radar cross section of the B-26 aircraft at 3 GHz frequency as a function of azimuth angle (after Skolnik)

Calculation of the radar cross section
Radar cross section (RCS) is the measure of a target's ability to reflect radar signals in the direction of the radar receiver, i.e. it is a measure of the ratio of backscatter density in the direction of the radar (from the target) to the power density that is intercepted by the target. Since the power is distributed on the shape of a sphere, a small part of this ((4·π·r2)) can be received by the radar.
Radar cross section σ is as defined as:

σ = 4·π·r2·Sr/St

mit
σ: measure of the target's ability to reflect radar signals in direction of the radar receiver, in [m²]
St: power density that is intercepted by the target, in [W/m²]
Sr: scattered power density in the range r, in [W/m²] (1)

The RCS of a target can be viewed as a comparison of the strength of the reflected signal from a target to the reflected signal from a perfectly smooth sphere of cross sectional area of 1 m².

The following backscattering formulas from shapes occurs in an optical independent of frequency region.

reflected signal from a spherical shape

σmax = π ·R2 (2)

reflected signal from a cylinder

σmax = 2·π·r·h2 (3)
λ

reflected signal from a flat plate

σmax = 4·π·b2·h2 (4)
λ2

reflected signal from a tilted plate

...Real as the previous example. Unusual feature: the reflected energy is reflected in another direction. Well, the transmitting radar cannot receive this energy. Therefore there are bistatic radars at which the transmitter and the receivers are separated from each other spatially.

Table 1: RCS for geometrically bodies

RCS for Point-Like Targets
Targets RCS [m2] RCS [dB]
bird 0.01 -20
man 1 0
cabin cruiser 10 10
automobile 100 20
truck 200 23
corner reflector 20379 43.1

Table 2: RCS for Point-Like Targets

Some targets have large values of RCS owing to their size and orientation and consequently, reflect a large portion of the incident power. The beside table shows the values of RCS for some targets at X-Band

(Table from: M. Skolnik, “Introduction to radar systems”, 2nd Edition, McGraw-Hill, Inc 1980, page 44.
The RCS of the corner reflector is given for a triangular reflector with a length of 1.5 m.)

http://www.radartutorial.eu/01.basics/Radar Cross Section.en.html

it is of interest to look at an area on the ground that includes many objects. In those situations, it is useful to use a related quantity called the differential scattering coefficient (also called the normalized radar cross-section or backscatter coefficient) σ0 ("sigma naught"), which is the average radar cross-section of a set of objects per unit area:
σ 0 = ⟨ R C S i A i ⟩ {\displaystyle \sigma ^{0}=\left\langle {{RCS_{i}} \over {A_{i}}}\right\rangle }

where:

• RCSi is the radar cross-section of a particular object, and
• Ai is the area on the ground associated with that object.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_cross-section

 

[Dazzler]

Chief Designer of KLJ-7 and 7A radar....a brief interview (more than 1000 T/R units)


At the Zhuhai Air Show in 2016, China Electronics Technology Group's 14th Research Institute brought its latest product, the KLJ-7A Airborne Active Phased Array Fire Control Radar. This is the first time in 20 years that Zhuhai Airshow has exhibited such radars and has become the focus of the air show site, attracting the audience, the media and the industry's attention.

The magazine noted in the field that the president and vice president of the Russian tihimilov apparatus institute and the chief designer of the Fazatelon Design Bureau have come to 14 booths and have been very careful to observe and learn more about the KLJ-7A Happening. The two units are Russia's main airborne fire control radar development units, and 14, is the world's few able to develop active phased array fire control radar units, we can see the industry for the KLJ-7A debut huge attention.

In order to further understand the performance of KLJ-7A radar and China's airborne fire control radar in the field of development and export situation, "modern weapons" magazine had the honor to interview the "Fierce Dragon" fighter radar system director designer Xu Jian, through his personal experience We have in-depth explanation.



Airborne radar production line exports

KLJ-7A airborne active phased array fire control radar

Zhuhai air show in the final analysis or a business platform, where the exhibition is an important factor to consider the export. According to Xu Jian, China has been in the airborne fire control radar has been exported, and far more than simply "export" so simple, whether it is bidding process, cooperation model and the story behind the impressive.

"Fierce Dragon" fighter (export model: JF-17) is the Air China and Pakistan Air Force jointly developed a light multi-functional fighter, the equipment of the radar contract competition began in 2003, 14 airborne fire control radar in a number of The selection of the test flight showed outstanding performance, with Italy, France and other units in the country stand out. In more than a decade ago, with the traditional foreign countries in the field of competition is undoubtedly embodies the 14 as "China's radar industrial birthplace," the strong strength.

Now more than ten years have passed, then what about the project? According to Xu Jian introduced in the small batch of radar after the successful delivery of foreign companies based on the idea of technological progress, follow-up radar procurement to take cooperative production methods. From 2009 onwards, 14 of the technical guidance team to take root in a country's factories, and gradually carry out the radar in the country's batch production cooperation. In order to help the country build a complete production capacity, 14 to the country to provide a large number of production, commissioning and testing equipment, so as to truly achieve all the radar components in the country's localization production vision.

Any one of the implementation of the project will not be smooth sailing, stringent requirements of users, the local hard construction conditions and the two sides of different cultures and ideas to bring the communication gap, gave the scene to bring a lot of difficulties and challenges. The entire production, process, commissioning and testing equipment for foreign personnel are the first zero distance contact, for which the Chinese experts to the country to provide high-quality training.

Xu also recalled him and the team experienced in Pakistan, a variety of breathtaking scenes: 2008, the Bama Rio Hotel big bang, when the atmosphere is very strong terror, while the Chinese engineering team is the base of the test flight; the 2009 earthquake in Pakistan In 2011, Osama bin Laden was killed, the Taliban armed threatened to retaliate, their base is not far from the country's factory, for safety, the engineering team in the base was closed a full three month. In the case of such a difficult situation, the Chinese engineering team's calm and calm to Pakistani personnel moved, they use practical action to practice the friendship between the two countries, and airborne fire control radar cooperation project is the two countries friendship enrichment and Sublimation of the witness.


What is the advantage of airborne active radar?

The Zhuhai Air Show, KLJ-7A radar in China Electronics Technology Group company theater entrance to the most prominent position, the audience into the exhibition area will be able to see it first. Reporters on the scene to see, China Electric Branch leadership to visit the guests to introduce the product is the first to introduce the KLJ-7A, the audience will be in this type of product before the stop.

Why is KLJ-7A so interesting? Speaking of this, we have to know in the rapidly changing complex combat environment, as the main battlefield to detect the perception of the battlefield situation, airborne fire control radar to complete the search, intercept, track, guide a variety of functions, is the "Air Eagle" fighter sharp Eyes, always ready to find the enemy, to give a fatal blow.

According to the working system and combat effectiveness, the development of active airborne fire control radar has undergone three stages: machine sweep pulse Doppler radar, passive phased array radar and active phased array radar. According to Xu Jian introduced, 14 of the plant such products through the same several stages.



KLJ-7A radar technology level and the United States F-22 stealth fighter APG-77 radar comparable

Nearly 30 years, 14 of the airborne radar has achieved from scratch, to reach or close to the level of foreign technology, with considerable competitiveness, not only occupy the vast majority of the domestic market share, has gradually entered International military market.

In the 1980s, there were only a few developed countries in the world who could develop airborne pulse Doppler radar, and our country was weak, and a lot of key technologies were in the initial stage. The concentration of airborne radar elite team began in 14 Research and development, the key components and modules began to break through the PD (pulse Doppler) key technology, he presided over the completion of the radar engineering design, so that the PD radar system to the Breakthrough, is a major achievement in the field of radar, China has set the field of national defense airborne radar independent research base.

Active Phased Array Fire Control Radar Each antenna unit is connected behind a T / R component, which is closer to the antenna element, eliminating the RF loss caused by the feeder network when the passive phased array radar is received and received. Therefore, the RF power High efficiency, can significantly improve the detection range. At the same time, active phased array radars use highly reliable solid-state devices to replace low-life electrical vacuum devices, improving reliability and greatly increasing maintenance intervals.

Compared with the traditional mechanical scanning radar, the active phased array radar beam is flexible, which increases the system bandwidth, and can realize the same time, space, sea, search, precision tracking, missile guidance, multi-target attack, electronic warfare, imaging Different working modes, to achieve different functions. In addition, active phased array radar also has a high data rate, stealth performance, anti-interference ability and so on.

Today, the airborne active phased array fire control radar has become the current national new fighters and the original fighter upgrade essential products.


Technical level comparable to F-22 fighter radar

According to Xu Jian introduced, the use of advanced solid-state active phased array radar technology, can be equipped with, light fighter, the main combat missions, including seizure of air power, destroy the enemy battlefield targets, destroy enemy forces; assault maritime targets, ; Destruction of the depth of the political economy and military and other important goals.

Xu Jian said, KLJ-7A to play a role first of all have to put the radar on the plane up. For the new fighter, because the design to consider the use of active radar, usually the problem is not, and for those modified aircraft will have more trouble, active radar for power and cooling requirements are higher, to adapt to the radar It is necessary to adjust the local aircraft. One of the advantages of the KLJ-7A is its low power consumption, and its power supply and cooling unit can also accommodate different cooling methods for air-cooled and air-cooled aircraft.

Customers can according to the actual situation, put forward the demand, 14 can even be tailored for its special small liquid cooling unit. Overall, KLJ-7A compact design, with a very good load-bearing platform fit.

As the core of the radar, the KLJ-7A exhibited more than a thousand T / R components, although the power consumption is low, but the overall power in the international at a high level. Xu said that all of these T / R components are all developed by 14 self-produced, and the performance and foreign quite. Thanks to this, the KLJ-7A has reliable search and multi-target tracking, open space and empty sea target search and tracking, and high resolution synthetic aperture imaging capabilities. With the weapons and fire control cross-linked to complete the guidance of advanced air-to-air missiles, with the control of artillery, combat missiles, rockets and bombs launched and delivered to achieve the same time empty and multi-target and precision targets.
Xu Jian stressed that KLJ-7A radar as a new technology of the radar system, compared to traditional radar in all aspects have been fully optimized. It can easily send out a variety of waveforms and different types of target war; radar freedom is high, wider bandwidth, the radar will not interfere with each other, while anti-jamming capability has also been greatly improved, can simultaneously deal with multiple sources of interference; The overall response speed of the transmission information is greatly improved; the detection distance is twice that of the traditional radar. While tracking a number of goals and guiding the fight. This depends mainly on the number of aircraft carrying the bomb, if the number of allow there is room for improvement.

In addition, KLJ-7A also has a strong high-gain electronic support capabilities, electronic warfare, terrain avoidance, communication and weather detection and so on. It can be said that its versatility is very prominent, such as electronic confrontation.

Xu Jian also specifically mentioned the KLJ-7A's high reliability and maintainability, the radar's average failure time is very long, do not open the radar cover in the case of radar can be self-test. Even if a failure, maintenance is also very convenient, plug-in plug-in design to ground staff 10-15 minutes to complete the disassembly operations.

When talking about KLJ-7A compared with foreign products in what position, Xu Jian said, KLJ-7A technical details can match the F-22 use APG-77 radar, the design level is also comparable with them The But we pay more attention to control costs, more cost-effective.

Looking forward to the future, with the development of microelectronics technology, digital array, software-based radar technology and advanced processing algorithms, fighter aircraft active phased array fire control radar forward ultra-wideband RF synthesis, non-cooperative target recognition, multi- In the future, airborne fire control radar will have a more flexible configuration, more powerful perception and better fit. The future of airborne fire control radar will have a more flexible configuration, more powerful perception and better fit. Sex, so that a new generation of fighters in complex geographical and threatening environment in the first enemy found, the first enemy attack, the first enemy to destroy, while ensuring their own battlefield viability.

Xu said that the current 14 has been in the development of a new generation of airborne active phased array fire control radar, in the relevant areas have made progress.

 

[Windjammer]

Or may be that's not the case and they are simulating potential adversaries? That's the purpose behind the Red Flag exercise at the least. I would imagine other countries do the same too. Like Pakistan does DACT with the Chinese SU's and ME Mirages to simulate Indian SU and Mirages?

I can see this being the case for the Chinese jets. Not sure about the JF-17 though. That's interesting though.

I do have a question for you though. Why does Pakistan not add KLJ types of Radars to its most recent batch of F-7PG's? Because with small mods, that plane can carry two BVR's, giving it a much bigger punch and force multiplication capability, than the two PL-5's it carries right now. Do you know the real reason behind it?

The F-7PG in PAF is termed as the poor man's F-16, which is something of a misnomer as it's known to have spoiled a few Falcon pilot's day.....technically it was first aircraft in PAF service with BVR capability.

 

[Maxpane]

any new about jf 17 and her avionics detail?

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi is there a 3d model of jf-17 available which provides a tessellation of the outer surfaces and the 3d coordinates can be read from the file?

 

[CriticalThought]

JF-17 Exclusive air-to-air footage

NOTE: Two planes, two different smoke trails. They couldn't make it more painfully obvious. SOMETHING is going on behind the scenes that we don't know about.

@Windjammer

 

[Tempest II]

http://www.jpier.org/PIERM/pierm48/11.16022503.pdf

the RCS of an F-117 model is calculated at 100 MHz and 5 GHz. When the aircraft is illuminated head on the monostatic RCS is approximately 24 m2 at 100 MHz and 0.0001 m2 at 5 GHz.

 

[salman-1]

Or may be that's not the case and they are simulating potential adversaries? That's the purpose behind the Red Flag exercise at the least. I would imagine other countries do the same too. Like Pakistan does DACT with the Chinese SU's and ME Mirages to simulate Indian SU and Mirages?

I can see this being the case for the Chinese jets. Not sure about the JF-17 though. That's interesting though.

I do have a question for you though. Why does Pakistan not add KLJ types of Radars to its most recent batch of F-7PG's? Because with small mods, that plane can carry two BVR's, giving it a much bigger punch and force multiplication capability, than the two PL-5's it carries right now. Do you know the real reason behind it?

The chinese radars for F-7 and pg models used to catch more ground clutter than the data required by the pilot, the grifo presented the most ranging radar with minimum ground clutter. More often they offered tot with assembling plant paving the way for a new radar factory. They also provided grifo-M for mirages. That was the best opputunity PAF ever availed in 90's.

 

[DJ_Viper]

The F-7PG in PAF is termed as the poor man's F-16, which is something of a misnomer as it's known to have spoiled a few Falcon pilot's day.....technically it was first aircraft in PAF service with BVR capability.

I understand that. It is one of the most agile air-frames of its time. Which is why I am asking, why did PAF not consider putting KLJ radar on it and use SD-10's? That would give it a huge benefit in terms of force multiplication. With PL=5's, you are still limited to 20-22 KM's I think. While with SD-10's, you can increase the coverage distance by 4 times.

The chinese radars for F-7 and pg models used to catch more ground clutter than the data required by the pilot, the grifo presented the most ranging radar with minimum ground clutter. More often they offered tot with assembling plant paving the way for a new radar factory. They also provided grifo-M for mirages. That was the best opputunity PAF ever availed in 90's.

I understand that. But I am talking about now, like 2010 and beyond with the JFT in the picture with the KLJ-7 radar, which is supposedly much better than the Grifo's. So why not upgrade these jets with KLJ-7 radar, to intercept at 60-80 KM's through SD-10's, vs. keeping the Grifo on?

By staying with Grifo, F-7PG's will always be a PD interceptor with like 20 km range, while the IAF jet's can fire onto it from like 50-80 KM's away. If there were KLJ-7 radars on the PG, you could do the same and increase your real BVR force by 100 or more F-7 PG's...

 

[CriticalThought]

I understand that. It is one of the most agile air-frames of its time. Which is why I am asking, why did PAF not consider putting KLJ radar on it and use SD-10's? That would give it a huge benefit in terms of force multiplication. With PL=5's, you are still limited to 20-22 KM's I think. While with SD-10's, you can increase the coverage distance by 4 times.



I understand that. But I am talking about now, like 2010 and beyond with the JFT in the picture with the KLJ-7 radar, which is supposedly much better than the Grifo's. So why not upgrade these jets with KLJ-7 radar, to intercept at 60-80 KM's through SD-10's, vs. keeping the Grifo on?

By staying with Grifo, F-7PG's will always be a PD interceptor with like 20 km range, while the IAF jet's can fire onto it from like 50-80 KM's away. If there were KLJ-7 radars on the PG, you could do the same and increase your real BVR force by 100 or more F-7 PG's...

As an outside observer, I'd say the PAF war fighting doctrine doesn't call for it.

 

[DJ_Viper]

As an outside observer, I'd say the PAF war fighting doctrine doesn't call for it.

So....the PAF wouldn't want to have 100 more BVR fighters that can give it a huge punch against the IAF by adding a couple of millions worth of upgrades in terms of the KLJ-7 radar? Sorry, your logic makes no common sense. Let's wait for others to respond. I've always been curious about this. Indians upgraded their Mig-21's a long time ago and they served them well for like 2 decades now.

 

[CriticalThought]

So....the PAF wouldn't want to have 100 more BVR fighters that can give it a huge punch against the IAF by adding a couple of millions worth of upgrades in terms of the KLJ-7 radar? Sorry, your logic makes no common sense. Let's wait for others to respond. I've always been curious about this. Indians upgraded their Mig-21's a long time ago and they served them well for like 2 decades now.

It's not as simple as adding new radars. There is the ongoing maintenance which is an operation in itself and diverts resources. You want very high availability for your front line fighters. Also network-centric features eliminate the need for every fighter needing an advanced radar.

 

[Mughal-Prince]

Aurangzeb Alamgir was hell bent on eradicating the Sufi saints and their mosoleums. He went far and wide and destroyed many shrines, he was returning to take care of Nizamuddin Auliyya a Saint of his time. When the news reached NIzamuddin Auliyya Rahimahu Allah he uttered the famous words. "Hunouz Dilli Door ast"(persian for Dehli is still far away). His words became famous as they turned out to be true and Aurangzeb died on the way to Dehli. So now we use the phrase for an event which has a lot of uncertainties involed.

Absolutely right!!! Yeh Watar Coolar Aap Ka Hua