JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[MilSpec]

Obviously how much possible unbiased Opinion you can give, when you know that it will be pitched against you if any adventure happens

Exactly for the same reason, I would be objective. but anyways, good luck in getting answers better suited for you. tag oscar for an objective answer.

 

[Eagle Claw]

learn to respect knowledge ....

Bro do visit Indian's Defense Forum, Websites, Facebook Pages and Group, do let me know how much respect they gave you just because of your identity bro
Anyways leave it on a Side. This topic is worth Discussing.

 

[HRK]

Bro Do visit some Indian Defense Forums, Facebook Pages and Groups etc. Do tell me about respect they gave you bro
Again Bro Come on the Topic. Its a matter worth discussing

dear we know about them but their behaviour does not constitute a valid reason for us to behave in same manner secondly what MilSpec said in his post is all true; just apply a simple logic what benefit a DELTA WING JF-17 will offer over CROPPED DELTA JF-17 with same engine .... ??

As indicated earlier (in the post of MilSpec) the flight characteristic of that new design will be different so as all of the related engineering package associated with it will also be different, what's the need to develop a different aircraft when a Delta wing aircraft is already available to PAF (J-10) ... ??

 

[syedali73]

Bro do visit Indian's Defense Forum, Websites, Facebook Pages and Group, do let me know how much respect they gave you just because of your identity bro
Anyways leave it on a Side. This topic is worth Discussing.

Knowledge is Momin's lost legacy, collect it wherever you find it, said by our beloved Prophet (PBUH). There is no condition on who should you learn from. In-fact those learned prisoners of war who could not pay were encouraged to teach Muslims in return of their freedom. Please pay attention to what @HRK has said. Thanks.

 

[sathya]

Didn't asked from Irrelevant persons. Anyways thanks for your reply but its not your domain to comment on !
Have a good day.

Then you will miss the real kick out of PDF ,

 

[abdulbarijan]

I have 1 *'Masumana'* Question .
Why PAF doesn't build a new variant of Thunder in Delta Wing Configuration ?
Means it will be ideal if we replace Mirage 3s and Mirage 5s with a Delta Wing. Secondly PAC/PAF has alot of experience related to Re-building of Mirage 3s and Mirage 5s. They would have knowledge about delta wing configuration and may be they have Reverse Engineered those Mirage 3s and Mirage 5s. If not, they can Reverse Engineered it now. Get the inner details through Reverse Engineering of Mirages, Modify and Build up new delta wing design based on that. It will have multiple Advantages.
1. Cost will be minimal because it will not require R&D from 'Ground 0'.
2. Work can be done faster as we can take help from China.
3. As we have Thunder as a Baseline Project, we can modify the Airframe and its Aerodynamics, resulting in a Variant with Delta Wing configuration. Avionics and EW of Thunder we can use as it is on This 'imagined' Variant.
Further Modifications PAF/PAC can do in Shape of adding Canard or Levcons for Low Altitude performance enhancements.
I know its not as simple as it is in speaking. But it can be done.
And if PAF can do it. it would be great and the Combo of Delta and Non Delta will remain their for PAF.
I would be grateful if discussion on this particular domain is also done by our respected members.

Well first off you should be grateful that a poster who is well respected in this board answered your question -- just cuz his flag says "Indian" doesn't mean he knows any less ...

As a matter of policy most trolls from either side Pakistan & India or be it another country are kicked out to maintain good quality and a forum is a place where you share Ideas, doesn't matter if your Indian or Pakistani -- We all know very well of the conditions prevalent on the Indian forums -- so there is no need to lecture all of us about that -- just because we don't follow such standards is the very reason we have many good posters from different countries around the world ... just look around you will find a whole bunch of them ....

As far as your question goes, I believe @MilSpec has answered the engineering side to your question, so let me answer with a "business perspective" ---

The things to consider here would be:-

-Is going for a separate version like the one suggested, consistent with the philosophy of the program (cost effectiveness etc.) ?

-What would that detla version offer over the cropped delta (current config) ?

- Do we have enough assets (financial ofcourse ) to be going in different versions, when we are already in process of manufacturing a two-seater version, along with the block III ..

-Assuming we do have enough money, would the end product justify the cost ?

-Just what is "minimal cost" ?

-Does China have enough capacity where they would undertake another project while they are already undertaking massive projects of their own?

If you answer these questions in your head honestly -- you will have an answer -- just in case you want a hint -- "The answer is --- the product doesn't justify the cost nor the effort -- so the answer would be a negative --

 

[danger007]

Bro do visit Indian's Defense Forum, Websites, Facebook Pages and Group, do let me know how much respect they gave you just because of your identity bro
Anyways leave it on a Side. This topic is worth Discussing.

I been to pakistani discussion board and FB pages... where most pakistanis abuse India... So what you want to say???? none of us are different....

 

[araz]

Didn't asked from Irrelevant persons. Anyways thanks for your reply but its not your domain to comment on !
Have a good day.

That is a very rude response. Appreciate knowledge where ever it comes from and acknowledge it. He took the time to respond to you and responded in a very balanced manner. It should be appreciated. Now stop being an idiot and grow up and show some respect.

 

[My-Analogous]

Good for you Sir. Obviously how much possible unbiased Opinion you can give, when you know that it will be pitched against you if any adventure happens
No disrespect and offense but I would Prefer Opinion of Chinese and Pakistani Members on this issue

Mate this is not good and he give a proper technical answer and i am completely agree with him. I think you must have say sorry to him. As Hazrat Ali R.A stated" Don't think who is saying, think what he is saying".

sure thing,
fyi - I might have more aeronautical manufacturing experience from most here.

Please accept my apology and he don't know what he is doing

 

[MilSpec]

Mate this is not good and he give a proper technical answer and i am completely agree with him. I think you must have say sorry to him. As Hazrat Ali R.A stated" Don't think who is saying, think what he is saying".



Please accept my apology and he don't know what he is doing

Relax guys,
It's fine, he is a new member here. He'll learn after interacting with member here
Regards.

 

[Eagle Claw]

Relax guys,
It's fine, he is a new member here. He'll learn after interacting with member here
Regards.

I would like to Apologize Sir for my comment. Actually before talking with you I have been to FB, to a Indian held group. Rest you can understand better, what would have had happened. I took out that frustration here, I again Apologize for that. Agree with other senior members that knowledge should be given respect and it deserve respect.

dear we know about them but their behaviour does not constitute a valid reason for us to behave in same manner secondly what MilSpec said in his post is all true; just apply a simple logic what benefit a DELTA WING JF-17 will offer over CROPPED DELTA JF-17 with same engine .... ??

As indicated earlier (in the post of MilSpec) the flight characteristic of that new design will be different so as all of the related engineering package associated with it will also be different, what's the need to develop a different aircraft when a Delta wing aircraft is already available to PAF (J-10) ... ??

Bro due to following Reasons I pitched up this point of Replacing Mirage 3s and Mirage 5s with a Delta Wing.
1. With a large enough angle of rearward sweep, the wing’s leading edge will not contact the shock wave boundary formed at the nose of the fuselage as the speed of the aircraft approaches and exceeds transonic to supersonic speed.
2. The delta plan form gives the largest total wing area (generating useful lift) for the wing shape, with very low wing per-unit loading, permitting high maneuverability in the airframe.
3. Delta will be stronger than a similar swept wing, as well as having much more internal volume for fuel and other storage.
4. Angle of attack increases, the leading edge of the wing generates a vortex which energizes the flow, giving the delta a very high stall angle.
About J-10: Why to go for J-10 when we can work it out with our almost about to retire fleet of Mirage 3s and Mirage 5s. Reverse Engineering and extracting out the inner details and Mapping/enhancing it with modern tech. Chinese can help out as they have experience of J-10 as well as J-20, they can also help us in integrating Canards or LEVCON. DSI and Avionics we can follow the same Pattern of Thunder on it just changing the Aerodynamics and Airframe. I don't know why but to me it doesn't appears any hard and fast science as we have been using Delta Wings from 65s. Till Date we would have got some knowledge about it. And if we have, why not utilize it to create something beneficial out of it.
About J-31, hmm J-31 should be proceeded in top priority but in order to take local aircraft building industry to the next level, its beneficial to have another aircraft prior to enter 5th Gen Era.

 

[JamD]

I would like to Apologize Sir for my comment. Actually before talking with you I have been to FB, to a Indian held group. Rest you can understand better, what would have had happened. I took out that frustration here, I again Apologize for that. Agree with other senior members that knowledge should be given respect and it deserve respect.



Bro due to following Reasons I pitched up this point of Replacing Mirage 3s and Mirage 5s with a Delta Wing.
1. With a large enough angle of rearward sweep, the wing’s leading edge will not contact the shock wave boundary formed at the nose of the fuselage as the speed of the aircraft approaches and exceeds transonic to supersonic speed.
2. The delta plan form gives the largest total wing area (generating useful lift) for the wing shape, with very low wing per-unit loading, permitting high maneuverability in the airframe.
3. Delta will be stronger than a similar swept wing, as well as having much more internal volume for fuel and other storage.
4. Angle of attack increases, the leading edge of the wing generates a vortex which energizes the flow, giving the delta a very high stall angle.
About J-10: Why to go for J-10 when we can work it out with our almost about to retire fleet of Mirage 3s and Mirage 5s. Reverse Engineering and extracting out the inner details and Mapping/enhancing it with modern tech. Chinese can help out as they have experience of J-10 as well as J-20, they can also help is in integrating Canards or LEVCON. DSI and Avionics we can follow the same Pattern of Thunder on it just changing the Aerodynamics and Airframe. I don't know why but to me it doesn't appears any hard and fast science as we have been use Delta Wings from 65s. Till Date we would have got some knowledge about it. And if we have, why not utilize it to create something beneficial out of it.
About J-31, hmm J-31 should be proceeded in top priority but in order to take local aircraft building industry to the next level, its beneficial to have another aircraft prior to enter 5th Gen Era.

I will answer strictly from a technical standpoint:
1- That's done for all supersonic aircraft. It just depends on how supersonic you plan on going. The higher the mach number, the more the shockwave at the nose will sweepback.
2- Yes, at high speeds.
3- What's a strong wing? Yes more fuel okay.
4- Yes. But the Cl-alpha slope is also very shallow for delta wings. So its not so much it allows you to fly at a higher alpha, its that you NEED to fly at a higher alpha to generate enough lift. This is why if you ever see a mirage landing it lands at relatively higher speeds (no one wants that) and at a high alpha (no one wants that either).


The point I'm trying to make is that a delta wing isn't some magic silver bullet that you seem to be making it out to be. It is one of the designs which works well in some conditions (like most designs). The cost to benefit for what you propose is quite terrible. And you say some things like "reverse engineer" and "extracting out the inner details" very lightly. Manufacturing a new aircraft is a HUGE prospect. It would take years, a decade even. How long did it take us to make the jf-17? I can assure you you will save no time by basing it off the jf-17, it will be practically a new aircraft. And to make a new aircraft just so we can have a delta wing isn't very wise. Requirements and constraints drive aircraft designs, not affinity for a particular wing design lol

 

[Ali Q]

Can Pakistan Air Force look into an Indigenous next generation close range and/or long range Air to Air missile Solution?
Instead of wasting a lot of money on off the shelf solutions that come with strings attached "normally"
It will be a big time investment in the R & D but will be a permanent, home made, secretive asset.
My Emphasis is on "Next generation"
As far as the PAF psyche goes in regards of developing or buying multiple platforms.. As being suggested above .. the answer will be that they want to keep it simple and minimum types of air frames to keep the Fleet maintenance friendly and cost effective, also gives the advantage of easier inter-operability and operational fusion
IAF is suffering the Multiple Platform syndrome.. hard to maintain , train people , Inter-operate... the list goes on..

 

[HRK]

Bro due to following Reasons I pitched up this point of Replacing Mirage 3s and Mirage 5s with a Delta Wing.
1. With a large enough angle of rearward sweep, the wing’s leading edge will not contact the shock wave boundary formed at the nose of the fuselage as the speed of the aircraft approaches and exceeds transonic to supersonic speed.
2. The delta plan form gives the largest total wing area (generating useful lift) for the wing shape, with very low wing per-unit loading, permitting high maneuverability in the airframe.
3. Delta will be stronger than a similar swept wing, as well as having much more internal volume for fuel and other storage.
4. Angle of attack increases, the leading edge of the wing generates a vortex which energizes the flow, giving the delta a very high stall angle.
About J-10: Why to go for J-10 when we can work it out with our almost about to retire fleet of Mirage 3s and Mirage 5s. Reverse Engineering and extracting out the inner details and Mapping/enhancing it with modern tech. Chinese can help out as they have experience of J-10 as well as J-20, they can also help us in integrating Canards or LEVCON. DSI and Avionics we can follow the same Pattern of Thunder on it just changing the Aerodynamics and Airframe. I don't know why but to me it doesn't appears any hard and fast science as we have been using Delta Wings from 65s. Till Date we would have got some knowledge about it. And if we have, why not utilize it to create something beneficial out of it.
About J-31, hmm J-31 should be proceeded in top priority but in order to take local aircraft building industry to the next level, its beneficial to have another aircraft prior to enter 5th Gen Era.

The simple & short answer of your 'Masoomana' query ''Its just not feasible''; number of poster have already explained the reasons related to this idea in different post .... so I believe there is no need to explain it further.

I do understand that some time some ideas do fascinate people too much but the utility of those ideas remain dubious on practical grounds.

 

[MilSpec]

I would like to Apologize Sir for my comment. Actually before talking with you I have been to FB, to a Indian held group. Rest you can understand better, what would have had happened. I took out that frustration here, I again Apologize for that. Agree with other senior members that knowledge should be given respect and it deserve respect.

No worries.

Bro due to following Reasons I pitched up this point of Replacing Mirage 3s and Mirage 5s with a Delta Wing.
1. With a large enough angle of rearward sweep, the wing’s leading edge will not contact the shock wave boundary formed at the nose of the fuselage as the speed of the aircraft approaches and exceeds transonic to supersonic speed.

But also remember that a delta wing design will bleed more energy going into angular plane against the thrust axis. So every time you pitch your nose your airframe will have less energy.

2. The delta plan form gives the largest total wing area (generating useful lift) for the wing shape, with very low wing per-unit loading, permitting high maneuverability in the airframe.

that depends on how your initial planiform was optimized and the requirement of Wing loading, Now higher Wing loading also means that reaction force on wing surface, flexural strength requirements on the roots and the stress concentration (both static and dynamic) are way higher on the fuselage.

3. Delta will be stronger than a similar swept wing, as well as having much more internal volume for fuel and other storage.

true

4. Angle of attack increases, the leading edge of the wing generates a vortex which energizes the flow, giving the delta a very high stall angle.

Not necessarily. Prime example is Mig29,Which can hit a higher AoA of limiter is overridden.
Here are few more aspects of Wing design.

http://faculty.dwc.edu/sadraey/Chapter 5. Wing Design.pdf

Here are a few threads on aircraft projects by @Manticore which you might find interesting

Combat Aircraft Projects & Designs - Index in 2nd post

Design characteristics of canard & non canard fighters