JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[Sine Nomine]

What needs to be changed is flight control systems. Chinese offered full digital FBW for JF-17 which would take 2 years.

i asked it to Oscar sir he told me that it is costly to go for all digital FBW and above all he said we are happy with it(really the guy coming from F-7 will be happy)
@S.U.R.B. agreed sir but i expect some surprise from PAF.....

 

[Bratva]

i asked it to Oscar sir he told me that it is costly to go for all digital FBW and above all he said we are happy with it(really the guy coming from F-7 will be happy)
@S.U.R.B. agreed sir but i expect some surprise from PAF.....

when we factor the the cost associated with block-3 upgrades, complete digital FBW would not drastically increase the overall cost of Block-3 since it would be a Chinese solution. Either we go for a complete package or not. No half-hearted measures because in a time frame of 5-10 years, JF-17 would be facing upgraded mirages,Mig's,SU's and Rafael's and LCA's.

JF-17 constrained performance vis a vis carefree handling and performance of F-16 on 23 March leaves a desire of expanding JF-17 care free handling

 

[JamD]

What needs to be changed is flight control systems. Chinese offered full digital FBW for JF-17 which would take 2 years.

Do have you any more details on the proposed Chinese FBW system?

 

[Bratva]

Do have you any more details on the proposed Chinese FBW system?

No. But JF-17 Project director mentioned it in one of it's interview. That if potential customers want Full FBW, China would design and develop and integrate it in 2 years.

 

[Arsalan]

think you planned to counter 100 BVR equipped fighters but actually when you attack you suddenly are facing over 300, then what would you do?either abort or fight?

)
I am sorry brother,, and i mean no offense,, but seriously if this is the PLAN of PAF then we are in deep 5hit!!!
The enemy is also here to fight a war, never under estimate your enemy.

On the other hand, think if the enemy knows that they will have to counter 300 BVR equipped fighter aircraft they are less likely to attack compared to when they think they will only have to over come a 50 or 100 strong force. REMEMBER,, if a war breaks out no one will win,,, the only victory is at avoiding the war. That is where the term Credible Deterrence comes in, this is what will stop countries from fighting and destroying the world!

 

[graphican]

SnakeHandler
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• Posts: 650
• Joined: 01 Jul 2007, 18:22

21 Aug 2008, 23:57
We reliably burn about a grand for a burner takeoff in an A-G config. That gets us from a dead stop to 350KTS at 2000 feet. We bring it out of AB usually at 300KTS unless the gear hasn't finished retracting, then we'll bring it out sooner. Both the PW220 in the Block 42 and the GE110 in the Block 40 burned about the same. The most fuel flow I've ever seen on takeoff was around 36K per hour. Why are you asking?

Hi,

If this is what you copied----it says a grand---ie 1000. So if it is a 1000 gals----then it is 3 times that amount of 7%---ie 21% and they normally climb to about 30000 ft and not 2000 ft.

But if 5 to 7 % is all they consume on an after burner take off with a full load and climb to their crusing altitude of around 30000 feet---we got our problems solved----let us get some more of those panes---.

Just a simple example----my Honda civic---give about 34 miles a gallon on regular driving surface streets-----. But when I am climbing up the hill thru Cajon pass at 75 miles and hour at 5000 RPM's in 4th gear---I am getting about 18-20 miles a gallon and still the engine can go up by another 2500 RPM's.

You guys want to try it on your own----just drive your cars in 3rd gear at 4500 rpms and see how these little cars become gas guzzlers---.

The bottom line question is----why would we need refuelers if only 5 to 7% of the fuel is used for take off----

Good question but when does refuelling usually takes place? Is it immediately after taking of our after couple of hours of flight?

) REMEMBER,, if a war breaks out no one will win,,, the only victory is at avoiding the war. That is where the term Credible Deterrence comes in, this is what will stop countries from fighting and destroying the world!

Your words are gems and I love your definition of victory.

 

[Hell hound]

@gambit bro can you clear the confusion here that how much fuel is consumed by a fighter jet during takeoff.

 

[JamD]

Good question but when does refuelling usually takes place? Is it immediately after taking of our after couple of hours of flight?

Both, depending on the mission.

@gambit bro can you clear the confusion here that how much fuel is consumed by a fighter jet during takeoff.

I am not going to enter the debate again but here's a link you might find useful:

Military Turbojet/Turbofan Specifications

F-16 with General Electric F110-GE-100
Dry TSFC(No Afterburner): 0.745 lb/lbf hr (16,600 lbf thrust)
Wet TSFC(Afterburner: 1.971 lb/lbf hr (28,000 lbf thrust)

MiG-29 with Kilmov RD-33
Dry TSFC(No Afterburner): 0.740 lb/lbf hr (11,100 lbf thrust)
Wet TSFC(Afterburner: 2.050 lb/lbf hr (18,300 lbf thrust)

You are free to do your own calculations with that

 

[MastanKhan]

1000 pounds as US aircraft measure fuel in pounds. Capacity of F-16C is around 14000 pounds with two tanks as per the second website. Figure of 2000 ft was quoted from the gentleman's post hence given as such.

Hi,

But you are looking at 2000 ft----the crusing altitude is 30000-40000 ft approximately---even though it is not on afterburners---but it is still gulping fuel to reach that altitude with all the load.

Umm so you know by some divine mean that PAF is run by idiots who lie to nation?
Did PAF ever let the nation down?
With the limited budget it have it is perfectly able to defend our skies from Indian Aggression.
Our current Falcons, If deployed properly are capable to counrer any Indian Plane with AMRAAMS and Sidewinders. Su30 Mig29 or Mirage 2000 Along with air defences and AWACS support.
We are not countering USAF or Russian Air force .
Mirages and older F7s will be gradually replaced by much capable JF17 within 5 years.
PAF guys are smart and they know how to run things in limited budget.
And our future is pretty secure in the form of F-31 from Shenyang or even The Turkish TFX if it materializes

If you have some real concerns regarding PAF you can discuss i will try my best to share what i know.
But if it is plain hatred and inferiority complex then i cannot help you much mate.
And please don't compare Arab Israel war with Indo-Pak conflict. And Pakistan Armed forces are not inefficient Arab forces.
Our aim is to deter india and any possible indian aggression and not to be an invading force. See it that way and we are capable enough to meet that objective

Hi,

Oh----gee---thank you sir for coming to clarify. Let us just start with terrorists strikes on two air force bases----a billion dollars worth of surveillance aircraft destroyed---and no executions---no firing squad----.

Just like No Korea did----the base commander--with security chief---and and regional air marshall should have been executed with anti aircraft guns-----.

Second time as it happened at Kamra---the AIR MARSHALL should have been executed as well by a firing squad along with his team.

1971------a PIA pilot reports missile boats being towed behind a navy ship coming towards Karachi---. The base commander does not launch aircraft to check the situation---call the air chief---he says to screw the navy----let navy handle its problems----. Karachi shipyard destroyed---oil storage destroyed thousands dead----because in his ALCOHOLIC stupor---the Air Chief is oblivious to the needs of the nation----who was it A RAHIM------.

Somewhere across the border pak army units advance into india somewhere -------wala ---they face indian air force strikes---they ask pak air force for help----paf says can't do---out of habbit.

Then the worst of all----picking up the F 16 over the Mirage 2000 in the 80's----and letting the enemy have access to the competition---.

Sir---keep your ----g stupid Pakistani term of "INFERIORITY COMPLEX" ----------------------------------.

ALL THIS DRAMA THAT PAK AIR FORCE PILOTS DO IN EXCERCIZES WITH OTHER AIR FORCES AND SHOW OFF HOW GOOD THEY ARE IS OUT OF SHEER ARROGANCE AND STUPIDITY. WHILE THEY ARE SHOWING OFF---THEY ARE TELLING / FORCING THE ENEMY TO TRAIN BETTER----what a fcked up mindset.

There is more.

 

[MastanKhan]

Good question but when does refuelling usually takes place? Is it immediately after taking of our after couple of hours of flight?



Your words are gems and I love your definition of victory.

Hi,

Supposedly---when they take off from an aircraft carrier---as they are taking of with maximum load----they carry a minimum fuel---so they need to be refueled right away---then they can be refueled again in the air.

For other missions taking off from the ground----they take of with a full load of fuel---and refuel later on as needed.

 

[Bashido]

Hello Guys,
My question may be out of context for that i am sorry but i want to know about the squardon of JFT in image. Because as far i have knowledge there are just two squadons Black Panthers and Spiders of JFT. Anybody can tell me about the squardon name of this aircraft. I see this tail first time .

 

[Sinnerman108]

Hi,

But you are looking at 2000 ft----the crusing altitude is 30000-40000 ft approximately---even though it is not on afterburners---but it is still gulping fuel to reach that altitude with all the load.



Hi,

Oh----gee---thank you sir for coming to clarify. Let us just start with terrorists strikes on two air force bases----a billion dollars worth of surveillance aircraft destroyed---and no executions---no firing squad----.

Just like No Korea did----the base commander--with security chief---and and regional air marshall should have been executed with anti aircraft guns-----.

Second time as it happened at Kamra---the AIR MARSHALL should have been executed as well by a firing squad along with his team.

1971------a PIA pilot reports missile boats being towed behind a navy ship coming towards Karachi---. The base commander does not launch aircraft to check the situation---call the air chief---he says to screw the navy----let navy handle its problems----. Karachi shipyard destroyed---oil storage destroyed thousands dead----because in his ALCOHOLIC stupor---the Air Chief is oblivious to the needs of the nation----who was it A RAHIM------.

Somewhere across the border pak army units advance into india somewhere -------wala ---they face indian air force strikes---they ask pak air force for help----paf says can't do---out of habbit.

Then the worst of all----picking up the F 16 over the Mirage 2000 in the 80's----and letting the enemy have access to the competition---.

Sir---keep your ----g stupid Pakistani term of "INFERIORITY COMPLEX" ----------------------------------.

ALL THIS DRAMA THAT PAK AIR FORCE PILOTS DO IN EXCERCIZES WITH OTHER AIR FORCES AND SHOW OFF HOW GOOD THEY ARE IS OUT OF SHEER ARROGANCE AND STUPIDITY. WHILE THEY ARE SHOWING OFF---THEY ARE TELLING / FORCING THE ENEMY TO TRAIN BETTER----what a fcked up mindset.

There is more.

You are your usual ballistic self today.

Anyway, thanks for the post. Indeed the RayBan glasses and the F-16 romance
has overly dramatized the force.

 

[MastanKhan]

Cars & Transportation Aircraft
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What is the afterburner range of an F-15 and F-16?
I'm pretty good at finding stuff online, but this one has me stumped. If you can find it with a source, I'd be most impressed.
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Best Answer: An F-15 Consumes:
6,000 LBS/hour at normal cruise (600 minute)
20,000 LBS/hour at mil take off
160,000 LBS/hour at AB (2666/minute)
She holds
internal: 13,455 lb
external: 9,750 lb
in Fuel

So with only Internal Fuel (say you are carrying some ordinance) you get a whopping 5 minutes until the tanks are completely dry. So with re-fueling and some reserves you are looking at a 2-3 minutes of strategic after burning. But you can go almost 100 miles in that 3 minutes.

You can play with the numbers and figure out some flight parms but remember to leave plenty of fuel for take-off and reserves to get back home.
Source(s): Grew up in the 500 building
Drewpie · 8 years ago

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  Most fighters are designed for a combat profile of a several hundred mile ingress, some loiter time on station, a few minutes of combat, and an egress.
  
  Not coincidentally, the time most of them can remain in maximum afterburner is, at the most, five to ten minutes.
  
  In the Tomcat A, we'd burn to BINGO in about four minutes in Zone 5. In fact, there were times we'd need to lose gas to make our landing weight at the boat, and we'd light the burners rather than open the dump; it was faster (and more fun) to burn the fuel.
  Source(s): Former Tomcat A RIO.
  Scott A · 8 years ago
  

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  About 19,000 lbs of thrust without afterburner, up to 24,000 lbs (F100-PW-100's)-28,000 lbs (F100-PW-220's) of thrust with afterburner. In full afterburner, I've been told you'll use up all your fuel in 8 minutes (don't know how true that is, though...)
  Source(s): Civil Air Patrol, Anchorage and Elmendorf Cadet Squadrons, 5 years. Spent a LOT of time around Elmendorf AFB, and (at the time) 43rd and 54th TFS F-15C's and 90th TFS F-15E's.
  Mad Scribbler · 8 years ago

 

[Sine Nomine]

ALL THIS DRAMA THAT PAK AIR FORCE PILOTS DO IN EXCERCIZES WITH OTHER AIR FORCES AND SHOW OFF HOW GOOD THEY ARE IS OUT OF SHEER ARROGANCE AND STUPIDITY. WHILE THEY ARE SHOWING OFF---THEY ARE TELLING / FORCING THE ENEMY TO TRAIN BETTER----what a fcked up mindset.

Enough Sir Gee! sums up everything we will not change our course un less some dudes comes in and on his both flanks he is accompanied by death squads for "Bayemman tola" and surely is out of mercy,in 90's Russians offered us Su-27 but we just said no we can't we are too lazy to maintain a double engine super maneuverable beast and only after gap of year or so India opted for Su-27,our love for viper is not ending we can grab Govt land to launching housing society,topple a Government but can't ask a Govt to gave extra funds for defence....

 

[Hell hound]

it might sound harsh but its reality that paf is going for the cheapest mall out there which i have no problem with because it is needed to fill the numbers but making it backbone of our air force that where problem is we need potent fighters for strike and air superiority. f 16 is good fighter and can perform both roles but its number in inventory is far to low to perform both of these role in case of war so we need either get more f 16 block 52 or any other new 4 gen fighter to fill air superiority or strike role to free current f16s from one role paf need to choose any of these two option but for god sake do something jf 17 is light weight fighter so have lot of limitation discussed many times in this thread and is only good for filling number but not meant to be our backbone fighter at least not in current state. can you name any 4 gen fighter that is operational and have specs lower then jf 17. it is most basic lowest tier 4 gen fighter out there in the market.
anyone saying we should wait for j 31 pls be realistic it will take almost 10 more year before it is ready and even then it is 5 gen fighter we cant induct it high numbers and it will also have extremely high operating cost as compared to 4 gen so we cant use it in every role even if it is meant to be used as multirole. we need good 4 gen fighter to be work horse even in year 2030.