JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[Kurlang]

 

[alimobin memon]

JF-17 loiter time is about 45mins without external tanks......if you take into account that Chinese premier's plane was escorted when it crossed the border somewhere over the Karakorams.....you'll see it is easily more than 45 minutes flight time (going there, catching up, formation and then coming in)....and they were using external tanks and then the same JF-17s did a fly pass over the Nur Khan base....not to mention one added feature that the Migs didn't have...aerial refueling.

So i am sure it is more than an hour on external fuel tank.

what is loiter time of 16 block 52 and mlu ?

 

[ConcealCarry]

at what speed? in a dog fight with after burners on, fuel burns out very quickly

JF-17 loiter time is about 45mins without external tanks......if you take into account that Chinese premier's plane was escorted when it crossed the border somewhere over the Karakorams.....you'll see it is easily more than 45 minutes flight time (going there, catching up, formation and then coming in)....and they were using external tanks and then the same JF-17s did a fly pass over the Nur Khan base....not to mention one added feature that the Migs didn't have...aerial refueling.

So i am sure it is more than an hour on external fuel tank.

 

[shy@SJTU]

Here's an interesting video about Yang Wei, the chief designer of FC-1/JF-17&J-20

From 29:12 to 31:02 is the designer's introduction of the strake wing and the Diverterless Supersonic Inlet(DSI).
If you can understand Chinese you can get a lot of information about JF-17 and the cooperation between China and Pakistan in this video.
Also there's an interesting story:Yang Wei(杨伟, Chief designer of J-20 & JF-17),Sun Cong(孙聪,Chief designer of J15 & J-31) Tang Changhong(唐长红,Chief designer of JH-7 & Y20) are roommates when they are in Northwestern Polytechnical University.

 

[Manticore]

From 29:12 to 31:02 is the designer's introduction of the strake wing and the Diverterless Supersonic Inlet(DSI)
if you can understand Chinese you can get a lot of information about JF-17 and the cooperation between China and Pakistan in this video.

can you summarize a translation for us?

 

[shy@SJTU]

can you summarize a translation for us?

From 29:12 to 31:02, Yang Wei explained the strake wing can form vortexes to improve lift on the wing when the plane has a large angle of attack. And the DSI of JF-17 has some differences from that on F-35 though the general principles are the same, the one on JF-17 has boundary layer suction holes to "get rid of the low energy air flow", and it enters service earlier than that on F-35. The DSI is hard to design, but it's easy to manufacture and easy to use.
To translate the whole video is too hard for me...too many technical terms , he also made a brief introduction on Digital FBW flight control system in this video.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Nice to see you back. Where have you been. Hipe to see ýou around more often.

Hi,

What's up my man? What is it---did your wife kick you out of the house and you have nothing to do except to come back here or like me you are in limbo for retirement!!!!!!!

Good to see you back.

Thanks both of you Sirs, had been into some issues at home and office, thus wasn't able to come and contribute much, but still would come online and used to lurk around and kept myself updated.

Hope to be around this time and contribute as much as possible or as did in the past.

 

[MastanKhan]

what is loiter time of 16 block 52 and mlu ?

Hi,

It is roughly 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 hours----. Loiter time is when you are flying with extra fuel tanks.

 

[Beast]

Here's an interesting video about Yang Wei, the chief designer of J-10, FC-1/JF-17&J-20

From 29:12 to 31:02 is the designer's introduction of the strake wing and the Diverterless Supersonic Inlet(DSI).
If you can understand Chinese you can get a lot of information about JF-17 and the cooperation between China and Pakistan in this video.
Also there's an interesting story:Yang Wei(杨伟, Chief designer of J-20,J-10 & JF-17),Sun Cong(孙聪,Chief designer of J15 & J-31) Tang Changhong(唐长红,Chief designer of JH-7 & Y20) are roommates when they are in Northwestern Polytechnical University.

J-10 is design by song wenchong and not yang Wei. Yang wei assists only. It is after J-10, Song pass the baton to Yang.

 

[MastanKhan]

JF-17 loiter time is about 45mins without external tanks......if you take into account that Chinese premier's plane was escorted when it crossed the border somewhere over the Karakorams.....you'll see it is easily more than 45 minutes flight time (going there, catching up, formation and then coming in)....and they were using external tanks and then the same JF-17s did a fly pass over the Nur Khan base....not to mention one added feature that the Migs didn't have...aerial refueling.

So i am sure it is more than an hour on external fuel tank.

Hi,

As long as the JF 17 has 1 1/2 hour of loiter time with the external tanks---that is a good thing. You can fly from one side of the country to the other side---in air refuel---and then are afloat for hours more.

Keep in mind now----more than 1/3 rd of the fuel is consumed at take off---so the loiter time with fuel at take off is going to be different than after the fuel has been topped off in the air----. Once the aircraft has been topped off in the air---its loiter time would increase substantially.

 

[I FLY HIGH]

Hi,

As long as the JF 17 has 1 1/2 hour of loiter time with the external tanks---that is a good thing. You can fly from one side of the country to the other side---refuel---and then are afloat for hours more.

Keep in mind now----more than 1/3 rd of the fuel is consumed at take off---so the loiter time with fuel at take off is going to be different than after the fuel has been topped off in the air----. Once the aircraft has been topped off in the air---its loiter time would increase substantially.

Hi,

As long as the JF 17 has 1 1/2 hour of loiter time with the external tanks---that is a good thing. You can fly from one side of the country to the other side---refuel---and then are afloat for hours more.

Keep in mind now----more than 1/3 rd of the fuel is consumed at take off---so the loiter time with fuel at take off is going to be different than after the fuel has been topped off in the air----. Once the aircraft has been topped off in the air---its loiter time would increase substantially.

What loiter time PAF requires for interception missions and for deep strike missions separately considering the locations of our different air bases .

 

[JamD]

Keep in mind now----more than 1/3 rd of the fuel is consumed at take off---so the loiter time with fuel at take off is going to be different than after the fuel has been topped off in the air----. Once the aircraft has been topped off in the air---its loiter time would increase substantially.

More than 1/3rd of all fuel? :o Where did you come up with that number my friend?

According to the Raymer aircraft design methodology the fuel fraction used up for warmup, takeoff and landing is taken at around 3.5% based upon historical trends.

You are quite right that topping off in the air saves a lot of fuel but warmup, takeoff and landing taking 1/3 or 33% is ridiculous.

I did some rough calculations using historical data estimates and a landing, warmup and takeoff cycle that would be added extra for a non aerial refueled mission would be 5% of the total fuel.

So you save that 5% fuel that can be used for loiter or cruise.

JF-17 has a 5,130 lb internal fuel load (wikipedia). 5% of that is 256.5 lbs of fuel.

Now I don't know the TSFC for the RD-93 so I'll assume a generous 0.4 lb/lb-h. Also I'm not using the breguet range equation as the added fuel is rather small. We can assume constant weight for this calculation.

Aircraft typically cruise at 1/3rd dry thrust setting. This means a thrust of 3836 lbs.

If one calculates that's 0.16 hours additional cruise which is 10 minutes which traslates to an additional range of 124 km assuming it is cruising at 40k ft @ mach 0.7.


These numbers may be off as I have made MANY assumptions (as you can see)

 

[Danish saleem]

Sir,

What we have is enough to defend Pakistan Airspace, though it could have been done using SAM's. Recently Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his visit to France last month had signed an agreement to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets in fly-away condition for over $6 billion. If PAF is able to get $ 6 billlion it can procure 108 aircraft JF-17's or F-16's or J-10's which can be a great force multiplier. Even with a 45 min loiter time it can give the other assists enough support but for that it would require to have a larger quantity.

and i also like to add that India using Multiple Platforms for their Air Superiority like Migs from Russian, with SU with different Technology also from Russia, Mirage 2000 from France, now Rafaellle from France too ,which is also a different platform then Mirage.

So maintaining all these different Platforms, are very very difficult, and also add costs too.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

and i also like to add that India using Multiple Platforms for their Air Superiority like Migs from Russian, with SU with different Technology also from Russia, Mirage 2000 from France, now Rafaellle from France too ,which is also a different platform then Mirage.

So maintaining all these different Platforms, are very very difficult, and also add costs too.

Yes that is correct costs do tend to increase. Still mixing of different type of aircraft form the same manufacturer can still reduce costs.

India is not going to use its entire air force against Pakistan. It has to counter the threat posed by China where its front line fighters would remain available. Still the Indian Naval Air Arm remains a potential threat with the Mig-29's and Mk2's.

Still Rafale deal has not been signed, even if these are going to enter IAF they would only be available for Deep Strike and Nuclear Strikes in China. This is due to the fact the French have advocated the Rafale has kills against the F-22 (though these were under controlled environment i.e. exercises).

Other aircraft like the Mig-21 with Su-30 MKI's giving top cover would be used to deny PAF any air superiority over Indian territory as historically attained by PAF. Jaguars and Su-30MKI providing top cover could also try to enter Pakistan for deep strike but that would only be possible if the war is one sided. If it is two sided then this is going to be very difficult to conduct.

 

[shy@SJTU]

J-10 is design by song wenchong and not yang Wei. Yang wei assists only. It is after J-10, Song pass the baton to Yang.

I’m sorry I will make the correction...but YangWei is the chief designer of J-10B