JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[karan.1970]

Eagerly awaiting the 3rd squad announcement.. Will certainly goad Indian Defence establishment into speeding up Rafale and LCA induction

 

[sancho]

Its like swallowing a cup of salt.

Considering that the Program is financed by China.. directly or indirectly..and at no point was it ever said that it was to go to PLAAF or not .. the credibility(along with the quality) of the article is pretty much nothing then which could have been saved by prose but the amateurish way it is written seems to put the nail in that coffin.

The JF-17 is financed by the PAF 50% though loans and by China..nothing has changed since.
Utmost discretion leaves a big question mark.
Especially since less than a year ago the Chinese were prepared to go one step further and completely finance the program in return for access to further mineral resources and development contracts.

I found some talk about the article in some French forums and was able to get this part at least for translation (not the full article though) and posted it only for info purposes. The content is debatable of course, but it was often stated here, that PLAAF would buy a good number as well, to replace J7s in their inventory. Another myth around the JF 17 that was hard to confirm, or reject by the lack of reliable confirmations from China.

Eagerly awaiting the 3rd squad announcement.. Will certainly goad Indian Defence establishment into speeding up Rafale and LCA induction

The one has nothing to do with the other, unlike the Mig upgrades and raising of new MKI squads at western.

 

[SQ8]

I found some talk about the article in some French forums and was able to get this part at least for translation (not the full article though) and posted it only for info purposes. The content is debatable of course, but it was often stated here, that PLAAF would buy a good number as well, to replace J7s in their inventory. Another myth around the JF 17 that was hard to confirm, or reject by the lack of reliable confirmations from China.

That is a what-if.. and always has been. Since there has never been any official confirmation for that.
The reason it kept burning around was because people misunderstood that a JV also meant a Joint Purchase.

It must be understood that the JV is between CATIC and PAC and not PLAAF and PAF.
CATIC is a private company at the end and has a JV with PAC. The interests here are commercial hence co-development does not immediately imply co-usage.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Rafale dan JF-17 Akan Bertarung di Serbia - KOMPAS.com

So JFT and Rafale are shortlisted And the winner is to be announced in 2014.and if someone follow the serbian forum.a news from 2012 july stated that JFT has much more chances

Rafale is no doubt a better fighter....but JFT offer many capabilities within a limited budget

This article is from Dec 2011. From a translation, I can not get any date of 2014 or anything like that. Is it legit?

 

[muse]

Please forum members , be reasonable -- JFT should be thought of first and primarily for PAF - now once PAF asserts that it has completed all tests, all integration and is extremely satisfied with the platform, only then should you allow yourselves to think about JFT as a possible candidate for evaluation by other Air Forces

 

[Armstrong]

That is a what-if.. and always has been. Since there has never been any official confirmation for that.
The reason it kept burning around was because people misunderstood that a JV also meant a Joint Purchase.

It must be understood that the JV is between CATIC and PAC and not PLAAF and PAF.
CATIC is a private company at the end and has a JV with PAC. The interests here are commercial hence co-development does not immediately imply co-usage.

@Oscar : Mate, what are your thoughts on the following post attributable to @pshamim :

You may call me crazy for dragging the Thunder in to PLA Navy carrier. Briefly,one of the simmering issue at present is how far J-10 can be improved and upgraded. J-10 is reaching a point where further upgrades may not be possible even though it is a great aircraft. JF-17 is not only inexpensive but has a lot of room to grow. A lot of talks and rumors are circulating, not necessarily that they are all true but they point to ideas that may or could be incorporated. I may state a few of them:

1. The single tall vertical tail may make way for twin tail to make it more stealthy. Also as Chinese have not designed and produced a twin tail yet, there seems to be a desire by the Chinese to introduce their own designed twin tail and introdece it for FC-1/JF-17
2. Twin tail will also reduce the weight
3.Change the circular rcs to diamond shaped cross section to improve stealthiness.
5. Keep the iconic DSI but make modify it due to changes in the nose
6. Increase the rounded edges on the wing. This will not only enable Thunder to perform better at low speed and at low altitude flying
This will also increase the wing tank capacity and increase range
7.Change the spine design and raise the cockpit for a better flight vision
8.Increase the take off weight.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...ole-fighter-thread-4-a-452.html#ixzz2KWeropRy

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar : Mate, what are your thoughts on the following post attributable to @pshamim :

You may call me crazy for dragging the Thunder in to PLA Navy carrier. Briefly,one of the simmering issue at present is how far J-10 can be improved and upgraded. J-10 is reaching a point where further upgrades may not be possible even though it is a great aircraft. JF-17 is not only inexpensive but has a lot of room to grow. A lot of talks and rumors are circulating, not necessarily that they are all true but they point to ideas that may or could be incorporated. I may state a few of them:

1. The single tall vertical tail may make way for twin tail to make it more stealthy. Also as Chinese have not designed and produced a twin tail yet, there seems to be a desire by the Chinese to introduce their own designed twin tail and introdece it for FC-1/JF-17
2. Twin tail will also reduce the weight
3.Change the circular rcs to diamond shaped cross section to improve stealthiness.
5. Keep the iconic DSI but make modify it due to changes in the nose
6. Increase the rounded edges on the wing. This will not only enable Thunder to perform better at low speed and at low altitude flying
This will also increase the wing tank capacity and increase range
7.Change the spine design and raise the cockpit for a better flight vision
8.Increase the take off weight.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...ole-fighter-thread-4-a-452.html#ixzz2KWeropRy

These were at most rumors..
The best way is to go to the horse's mouth.. and the horse's mouth was very adamant that no change is coming up except IFR for now... and better avionics..Block-III configuration is not decided.. Moreover, structural changes increase cost.. and hence goes against the idea of a cost-effective mass produced aircraft.

The Chinese have Their twin tailed, internal bay and all Naval candidate in the J-31.

 

[Armstrong]

These were at most rumors..
The best way is to go to the horse's mouth.. and the horse's mouth was very adamant that no change is coming up except IFR for now... and better avionics..Block-III configuration is not decided.. Moreover, structural changes increase cost.. and hence goes against the idea of a cost-effective mass produced aircraft.

The Chinese have Their twin tailed, internal bay and all Naval candidate in the J-31.

Oscar, I can understand the logic behind a cost-effective mass produced aircraft but can't we go for two versions of it ? Which is to say one that replaces bulk of the Mirages, A-5s & F-7s that we've got & perhaps 2-3 squadrons of certain Blocks of JF-17 with the aforementioned structural changes for certain dedicated roles ? Even if the cost of these particular Blocks transgresses whatever per unit cost we've decided for a cost-effective mass produced aircraft, isn't it worth looking into the possibility of acquiring a High-End version of the JF-17 to supplement our prospected High-Low of the F-16s & the JF-17s respectively ? Maybe make them on par with the Block 52s if not exceed them to have an indigenous platform to service the High-End of that High-Low ?

Or possibly look into making it a proper 4.5th Generation platform to be the prospected Low End post 2030 ?

If the JF-17 was conceived with the same idea behind it as the Al-Khalid was, that it can upgraded to various levels using various equipment of a diversified origin, then shouldn't that be possible too....at least technically so ?

 

[Kompromat]

If MKI went on static display in US or france, will they be displayed with AMRAAM or R77? I am not saying that PL5EII hasn't been integrated with JF17, I am simply asking for a source. More so, because I don't understand the rationale behind going for Pl5EII and MAA-1A at the same time. Why not buy a single WVR missile?

Maybe because MAA-1B offers better HOBS capability.

 

[SQ8]

Oscar, I can understand the logic behind a cost-effective mass produced aircraft but can't we go for two versions of it ? Which is to say one that replaces bulk of the Mirages, A-5s & F-7s that we've got & perhaps 2-3 squadrons of certain Blocks of JF-17 with the aforementioned structural changes for certain dedicated roles ? Even if the cost of these particular Blocks transgresses whatever per unit cost we've decided for a cost-effective mass produced aircraft, isn't it worth looking into the possibility of acquiring a High-End version of the JF-17 to supplement our prospected High-Low of the F-16s & the JF-17s respectively ? Maybe make them on par with the Block 52s if not exceed them to have an indigenous platform to service the High-End of that High-Low ?

Or possibly look into making it a proper 4.5th Generation platform to be the prospected Low End post 2030 ?

If the JF-17 was conceived with the same idea behind it as the Al-Khalid was, that it can upgraded to various levels using various equipment of a diversified origin, then shouldn't that be possible too....at least technically so ?

Structural redesign for a tank is still a lot easier than it is for an aircraft....
Moreover, every time you redesign.. you have to test it extensively for flight characteristics that only add upon the costs.
Twin tails arent an all out solution either(we have an example to our west why). The amount of R&D costs along with retooling that it will take to come up with a redesigned JF-17 which may end up costing a lot more than the original ,and giving performance that could have been achieved by simply designing a new fighter ends up being redundant.

What can and is being done is to get the most out of the airframe in a cost effective manner.
the second batch brings in a bunch of new weapons, improved radar, ECM,Defensive sub systems .. that get retrofitted to the first Batch. In essence, the JF-17 has lived up to its claim of being 80% of a F-16.. in-fact.. with the current configuration where it misses out is on T/W ratio and payload capacity..
Everything else is VERY VERY close to the effectiveness of the F-16 MLU.

Now the third batch decision on using the AESA is still pending as the PAF wants to decide if it still wants it. The Radar(s) are out there and available to the PAF who have weighed in their capabilities comparing them.
There were initial problems with getting cooling for the system as there was not enough space.. But the PAF has come up with a solution that is fairly ingenious and something I haven't read or heard of in any AESA application.

The question right now is of limited funds and utilizing those limited funds for the next five years..

 

[apple000]

Iraq is looking for a 2nd fighter besides the F16 block 52, do you guys think JF 17 is good for a place like Iraq ?

 

[Kompromat]

Iraq is looking for a 2nd fighter besides the F16 block 52, do you guys think JF 17 is good for a place like Iraq ?

JF-17s are available for Iraq.

"Iraq is currently negotiating for 18 used French Mirage 2000s and 6 US F16 plus is reported to be considering 24 Chinese Jf-17s"

http://home.comcast.net/~djyae/site/?/blog/view/84/

 

[apple000]

JF-17s are available for Iraq.

"Iraq is currently negotiating for 18 used French Mirage 2000s and 6 US F16 plus is reported to be considering 24 Chinese Jf-17s"
/=QUOTE]


36 F16’s block 52 have been ordered but it will take till 2018 until all of them are delivered, the US is really slow at this so I expect Iraq to stop at the number of 36 with F16 orders.
Talks have also been about the rafale which I think is superior to both the JF 17 block 1 and the F16 block 52

"The Mirages and F16s are a start but, the J17 suffers from the same problem all Russian/Chinese aircraft have. Russian engines only last half as long as western jet engines and Chinese engines are either Russian or based on Russian. Put that together with the engine overhaul facilities being in Russia or China, with the exorbitant prices and delays in spares/overhauls, means half would be grounded at any given time. Spares and engine overhauls are where the Russians and Chinese make their profit."

Considering the pricey tag of the Rafale, what would you chose if rebuilding an air force from its ashes, Expensive rafales or cheaper JF 17’s with bigger quantity.

 

[Shadow_Hunter]

Maybe because MAA-1B offers better HOBS capability.

Then just reject Pl5EII.
Btw hOBS for JF17 is useless since it does not come with an HMD. Pretty lame for a fourth gen fighter I'd say. Even our Mig 29s come with Schlem(supposedly better than F16s HMD)

This is a strategic partnership. The Chinese are very smart and they don't make mistakes like this. To keep influence on Pakistan, they may pay 100% of the cost and finance it through the soft loans to Pakistan if need be. The JFT will make the back bone of the PAF's fighter regiment and will take the PAF away (75%) from the foreign influence, giving it a much needed boost and a local defense industry. Canceling this project would mean China would risk its relationship with the ONLY key ally it has for decades. This is almost like the US canceling Israel's F-16 SUFA order or refusing to provide spareparts for its F-16 fleet. You might as well openly say goodbye to your partner in such scenario. So, this ain't happening

What local defence industry? All parts are made in China, you guys just assemble it.

 

[Anas Ali]

hey brothers
any new about Egypt and the jf-17 ?
i am really looking forward for this