JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[farhan_9909]

we dont give a damn about Russian brahmos aka rickshah missile in service with India

though they are surely pissed about this hypersonic missile
they better put more air defence system on their ships before commissioning

 

[Ping]

Whatever helps to keep your pampers from getting wet

Robert Hewson - Mach 4+ (Editor IHS Janes)
Official at Zhuhai- Mach 5.5 (Trasnlated by a chinese member just a few pages ago)

Unless you call an editor of Janes or an official a fanboy, your argument is hollow.

Which is why I said i believe the mach 4 figure.

you mean, translated by Chinese photoshop fanboys. In any case it's not much important. Mach 4 or 5.5 it doesnt make any difference in the ballistic phase. It'll gain more altitude with it's Mach 5.5 and hence more range, and that's it.

 

[alibaz]

Which is why I said i believe the mach 4 figure.

you mean, translated by Chinese photoshop fanboys. In any case it's not much important. Mach 4 or 5.5 it doesnt make any difference in the ballistic phase. It'll gain more altitude with it's Mach 5.5 and hence more range, and that's it.

Kh-15 (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Just give it a read , it's a bit different than your ballistics concept.

 

[Contrarian]

it will be visible on the radar all the way,but its too fast to avoid for a large ship...

No ship 'avoids' an AshM regardless of whether its big or small. The SAM batteries would do the needful in every ship that carries it. Is simpler as the missile is direct, its not a CM, it would be visible all the way.

 

[rockstarIN]

No ship 'avoids' an AshM regardless of whether its big or small. The SAM batteries would do the needful in every ship that carries it. Is simpler as the missile is direct, its not a CM, it would be visible all the way.

Not the right place to argue with, not the right people so..get out

They are under hyper sonic, carrier killer mode....nobody will actually 'debate' with you here.

 

[Ping]

Kh-15 (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Just give it a read , it's a bit different than your ballistics concept.

It's 1.2 tonne weight missile which reaches the edge of space.
[1.0] Soviet-Russian Air-Launched Cruise Missiles

I guess when u drop something from the edge of space it reaches mach 5 by the time it reaches ground. But KH-15s speed during boost phase will be higher than mach 5 for sure! Because the maximum speed of a ballistic missile is at the end of it's boost phase/just the begining of it's ballistic phase, and not the end of it's ballistic phase/the terminal phase. For instance minute man reaches it's max speed of Mach 23(15000 miles per hour) at the end of its boost phase/begining of ballitsic phase. After which it's speed slowly wans off when it glides to it's target.

"During its flight, the ballistic missile is boosted by its engines at an upward angle. During this boost phase, the engines burn for up to 300 seconds, propelling the missile until it is about 200 miles up. Within 50 seconds, the missile is above almost all of the earth’s atmosphere and really begins to accelerate, reaching its top speed of some 15,000 miles per hour. The engines drop off and the boost phase of the flight ends."

"The terminal Phase begins as the first air molecules begin to slow down and then to heat and to burn up the thin decoys and the remains of the missile. The air slows and heats the warheads too."
MissileThreat :: The Stages of a Ballistic Missile’s Flight

 

[Safriz]

No ship 'avoids' an AshM regardless of whether its big or small. The SAM batteries would do the needful in every ship that carries it. Is simpler as the missile is direct, its not a CM, it would be visible all the way.

Yes Barak has a high probability of shooting CM-400
BUT

Cost?
Barak 8 is 24 million dollar per system. Thats 3 million per missile..
CM-400 is most probably less than 100k per missile.
Cost will stop india from mass deployment of Barak system..But low cost will allow PAF to fire these missiles on same target in larger numbers..So chances of a kill are very high.
Low cost of this 'fire and forget' precision guided rocket is a very huge advantage..
Mass deployment is feasible and will overwhelm indian defences.

 

[Ping]

You may get a higher PK with one sea-skimming supersonic sunburn, than with a 3 anti-ship ballistic missiles which you may get at a cost of a single sunburn.

I guess PAF is really cash strapped to be opting for anti-ship ballistic missiles, instead of an anti-ship super sonic sea skimmers which can only be tracked and fired upon when it is really really close to it's target. Good luck getting a radar to detect a 4 - 5 meter altitude sea skimmer. Even if it does detect, good luck on maintaining a track with all the sea clutter and getting a firing solution quick!

In this age of net centric warfare, information is the key. What will your enemy prefer to counter, a surprise missile with just 25 seconds of reaction time(under aegis system! even less time under other systems), or a missile which he knows where it is and where it'll land for minutes beforehand? Whatever rocks PDF's and PAF's cash strapped boat.

Over and out.

 

[Safriz]

Whatever rocks PDF's and PAF's cash strapped boat.
Over and out.

Ooh the richy rich indians

On topic...
I think the missile wont be restricted to Anti ship mode only.
It can be used for ground attack also.
Total flight time is about 4 minutes,that does not give enemy defenses a lot of time to react.
About sea skimming missiles,pakistan has got a few already.
Plus the missile you and many others suggest , the sunburn is too big for JF-17 to carry....and again..being ramjet,must be expensive..

 

[alibaz]

As a layman I think to shoot down a target one has to be faster than that. Barak 8 has 4.5 Mac speed whereas its target will be coming at 5.5 Mac. It will be extremely difficult for Barak if not impossible and there is possibility that more than one Barak will be fired. The situation will be very interesting if a flight of 2 or 3 JFs fire 4 or 6 missiles with slightly different time interval.

 

[Contrarian]

Yes Barak has a high probability of shooting CM-400
BUT

Cost?
Barak 8 is 24 million dollar per system. Thats 3 million per missile..
CM-400 is most probably less than 100k per missile.
Cost will stop india from mass deployment of Barak system..But low cost will allow PAF to fire these missiles on same target in larger numbers..So chances of a kill are very high.
Low cost of this 'fire and forget' precision guided rocket is a very huge advantage..
Mass deployment is feasible and will overwhelm indian defences.

You are assuming that a low cost mass volume strategy will work for PAF. It is highly debatable to say the least.

There are many systems within which each system has to work.
Barak 8 is a fleet wide area defence system. Not all ships have to carry it. One or two ships in a SAG would carry it and it would provide fleet defence. The IN has the budget to sustain these weapons. Its not a question of money here.

Secondly, if its a carrier you want to target, you would know that a CBG would carry multiple ships which have both the Barak 8, Barak, Shtil and Kashtan.

Thirdly, the Carrier has its own fleet air defence. Why do you assume that PAF would ever get within 150 kms of the Carrier? It is highly unlikely that in a full scale war, PAF would be able to spare even the dedicated maritime attack fighters to go against the CBG even if they are able to locate it in real time. I understand that when you donot troll, you are technically oriented. You would know locating and even more importantly tracking a Carrier is not a simple 'the Chinese will give us coordinates' type.

Even after you locate the Carrier, how do you get past the fleet defence of the Carrier air arm considering the paucity of fighters PAF has considering that IN plan to fields its own AEW&CS from the second Carrier onwards.

The IN fighter fleet(not just the ones on the Carrier) would be bombing the Naval air bases of Pakistan in and out in a war. How do you propose to get a large strike package out of the bases without being detected as you would know that owing to Pakistan's shape - very low width, it is becoming easier and easier for Indian Military to monitor Pakistani airspace.

The CBG would not come near the Pakistani coast in the initial stages of war in any case. It will be used at standoff ranges, the air wing of the CBG being used only. Every day would mean a very high attrition for PAF. Would the PAF be able to deploy resources to attack a carrier after a few days of war?

Lastly, consider IAF - you would assume that they would be busy only on one front?

All systems considered, i dont think it has a high probability of success even if launched in numbers. That is never to say that it does not present a serious threat. It does and adds variety of PAF's arsenal, but hardly the kind of threat that you are talking about.

 

[Secur]

The PAF describe the missile's impact velocity as "hypersonic".

Confirms the terminal dive velocity figure of 5.5 Mach by the director of the company which manufactures the missile ... Anything going above 5 times the speed of sound is considered hypersonic ...

 

[alibaz]

You are assuming that a low cost mass volume strategy will work for PAF. It is highly debatable to say the least.

There are many systems within which each system has to work.
Barak 8 is a fleet wide area defence system. Not all ships have to carry it. One or two ships in a SAG would carry it and it would provide fleet defence. The IN has the budget to sustain these weapons. Its not a question of money here.

Secondly, if its a carrier you want to target, you would know that a CBG would carry multiple ships which have both the Barak 8, Barak, Shtil and Kashtan.

Thirdly, the Carrier has its own fleet air defence. Why do you assume that PAF would ever get within 150 kms of the Carrier? It is highly unlikely that in a full scale war, PAF would be able to spare even the dedicated maritime attack fighters to go against the CBG even if they are able to locate it in real time. I understand that when you donot troll, you are technically oriented. You would know locating and even more importantly tracking a Carrier is not a simple 'the Chinese will give us coordinates' type.

Even after you locate the Carrier, how do you get past the fleet defence of the Carrier air arm considering the paucity of fighters PAF has considering that IN plan to fields its own AEW&CS from the second Carrier onwards.

The IN fighter fleet(not just the ones on the Carrier) would be bombing the Naval air bases of Pakistan in and out in a war. How do you propose to get a large strike package out of the bases without being detected as you would know that owing to Pakistan's shape - very low width, it is becoming easier and easier for Indian Military to monitor Pakistani airspace.

The CBG would not come near the Pakistani coast in the initial stages of war in any case. It will be used at standoff ranges, the air wing of the CBG being used only. Every day would mean a very high attrition for PAF. Would the PAF be able to deploy resources to attack a carrier after a few days of war?

Lastly, consider IAF - you would assume that they would be busy only on one front?

All systems considered, i dont think it has a high probability of success even if launched in numbers. That is never to say that it does not present a serious threat. It does and adds variety of PAF's arsenal, but hardly the kind of threat that you are talking about.

As far as Pakistan is concerned CBG really doesn't matter cause India doesnt need it to strike at a place in Pakistan where it can't by using other available means. It will adopt the same role as it did in 65 once carrier was threatened by submarine. It may be useful against China but if India chooses to use it in any future conflict against Pakistan, they will put their CBG under threat without prospect of gaining much in return.

 

[Thorough Pro]

If that comforts you,then be it.

Good whiskey cannot be cheap by any mean...

 

[Contrarian]

As far as Pakistan is concerned CBG really doesn't matter cause India doesnt need it to strike at a place in Pakistan where it can't by using other available means. It will adopt the same role as it did in 65 once carrier was threatened by submarine. It may be useful against China but if India chooses to use it in any future conflict against Pakistan, they will put their CBG under threat without prospect of gaining much in return.

Most likely the Carrier will be put in high seas to enforce a blockade on the 2 Pakistani ports. It will not come anywhere near the coast. As you rightly put, the returns are not worth the risks.