JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Armstrong]

Sir its not the engine itself..
Its how and from where Pakistan gets it....thats the problem.
The whole point if jf-17 was to give pakistan an embargo free jet fighter..
Niw RD-93 is prone to delays and all out blockade at any time...
This doesnt match with the purpose of jf-17 program..
Thats why engine is pointed out always..,

I thougt that the deal for engines for 150 JF-17s was already done & dusted & that despite Indian pressure the Russians honored their comittment to China !

 

[fatman17]

Why China is not interested in JF-17 ? or they have a plan to induct them in the future

they need to replace their J-7's and FC-1 is the best bet, chinese engine willing.....they will not use the russian engine.

I thougt that the deal for engines for 150 JF-17s was already done & dusted & that despite Indian pressure the Russians honored their comittment to China !

correct! - russia has agreed to supply upto 500 RD-93's to china.

 

[Najam Khan]

A noob question, if anyone's up for it :

How hard is it to reverse engineer an 'engine' when you're already at the brink of creating a domestic one ? Which is to say could Pakistan allows the Chinese access to some of the F-16 engines that we have for them to make notes about it, to compare its performance with the desired performance of the indigenous Chinese one & to consequently identify improvements from the former to be implemented on the latter ?

Reverse enggineering requires design and operating manuals as well. When you buy an aircraft the owner trains your people on its design and its performance, they never tell you how its made. Which parts are made from which machine, which design methodology is adopted, which prons and cons were discussed during development etc. If somebody wants to reverse engineer an engine he would need logistic/training support,desgine and operating manuals.

Americans fear is any recap of U.S weapon's detail inspection to China. They know that Chinese have already gone too far in doing so, all they could do now is to minimize such incident. Even if Pakistan display anatomy of U.S weapons to Chinese, they won't get more than 50% from that. Sketching/photographing a design won't give them clear picture until the have necessary hardware code and design manuals.

Another reason of putting so much strings behind weapon sale to Pakistan is putting political pressure, hence keeping an eye on their use. They don't want to loose their grip on Pakistan, because a strong, peaceful and progressing Pakistan is not in their favour.

 

[Armstrong]

Why China is not interested in JF-17 ? or they have a plan to induct them in the future

Off the top of my head I have a faint recollection (and I maybe wrong) about how I read one of MuradK's posts about how the JF-17 was even being considered for the Naval / Carried-Based role by China !

Can anyone corroborate this or did I read it wrong !

P.S Either way its being tested quite a lot in China, or so I've heard & even Friendly relations have their limits for it takes money to do these things ! I have an inkling that China might have some plans for this bird too !

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

The day this bird be in PLAAF , it will be more easy to sell it in Africa to replay their F-7s and Mig21s (Chinese influence can help there)

 

[Najam Khan]

Sir its not the engine itself..
Its how and from where Pakistan gets it....thats the problem.
The whole point if jf-17 was to give pakistan an embargo free jet fighter..
Niw RD-93 is prone to delays and all out blockade at any time...
This doesnt match with the purpose of jf-17 program..
Thats why engine is pointed out always..,

What Pakistan want is a reliable supplier for JF-17 parts, right? Russia threatened engine sale after the Indian pressure in past, but when they saw the bigger picture they changed their decision. It was 2007/8? 4-5 happy years tell you what? Now the recent paradigm shift in Pak-Russia relations opens more doors for trade among both sides. In international relations interests overrule egos and rivalries, Russia knows that if he stops engine sale Chinese will eventually come out with a solution. But then, their will be no future for RD93 in FC-1 project.

 

[Safriz]

Why China is not interested in JF-17 ? or they have a plan to induct them in the future

Probably because its too small for their needs?
That doesnt mean they dont trust the plane as reliable platform..
Havent you seen jf-17 being used as chase plane when they are experimenting with their stealth .

 

[rcrmj]

What Pakistan want is a reliable supplier for JF-17 parts, right? Russia threatened engine sale after the Indian pressure in past, but when they saw the bigger picture they changed their decision. It was 2007/8? 4-5 happy years tell you what? Now the recent paradigm shift in Pak-Russia relations opens more doors for trade among both sides. In international relations interests overrule egos and rivalries, Russia knows that if he stops engine sale Chinese will eventually come out with a solution. But then, their will be no future for RD93 in FC-1 project.

it will take at least a decade, the army (PLA) put a lot of resources on WS-15 (J-20) and mass productions of WS-10A (J-11B, J-10B, J-15 and J-16)```so once the SAC's 'bastard' J-31 gets her own engine WS-13 which is the day when J-31 and FC-1 says byebye to Russian engines..

 

[BATMAN]

What Pakistan want is a reliable supplier for JF-17 parts, right? Russia threatened engine sale after the Indian pressure in past, but when they saw the bigger picture they changed their decision. It was 2007/8? 4-5 happy years tell you what? Now the recent paradigm shift in Pak-Russia relations opens more doors for trade among both sides. In international relations interests overrule egos and rivalries, Russia knows that if he stops engine sale Chinese will eventually come out with a solution. But then, their will be no future for RD93 in FC-1 project.

Actually, Chinese do have solution and JFT has been under successful trial with WS-13 since last many years.
Its just PAF trust RD-93 more.
it is simple sense... if Russia blocks the supply of engine than PAF will have no option but to go for WS-13, which is ready for mass production and the looser will be RD-93.

 

[alibaz]

I don't think it would be comercially viable to manufacture jet engines at this time. I would rather like to see PAC increase the number of parts manufactued in Pakistan from Pakistani produced materials specially frame.

There is one thing which confuses me, we know that we don't have any wind tunnels to teat air frme aerodynamics, but on the other hand we have many private concerns who are engaged in manufacturing high speed target drones, how and where do they test air wothiness of their models? Do they make their own designs from scratch or are they too just assembling them fromimported CKD's?

If they are capable of designing their own models, then perhaps PCA can form some kind of JV with them to atleast try to design a successor design of Thunder.

Don't worry we have some

 

[rcrmj]

Actually, Chinese do have solution and JFT has been under successful trial with WS-13 since last many years.
Its just PAF trust RD-93 more.
it is simple sense... if Russia blocks the supply of engine than PAF will have no option but to go for WS-13, which is ready for mass production and the looser will be RD-93.

sir, WS-13 is far from ready as far as I know``` I havent seen a single picture of WS-13 mounted on a jet``while WS-10A is everywhere on new PLAAF jets..... from all the sources I could find on Chinese forums, I will estimate the WS-13 and its whatever upgrated versions will be in service not before 2017.

all of my speculations are based on the SAC 'bastard' J-31, it will either use upgrated WS-13 engines or a new medium weight thrust turbofan engines````given the normal 5th gen development time line of 15-20 years (SAC has been working on J-31 for at least 3 years), so i'd guess the new engine's development maturity will be around 2020.

and with the bit drama played out when we were importing Russian engines for PAF's JF-17, we learnt that leason (both China and Pakistan)``as we cannot depend our vital weapons on others parts```so when we are selling J-31 to Pakistan we have to make sure its a simple end-to-end transaction``

hence I also do not believe that China and PLAF will spend more money or resources on JF-17 and its future versions````the future of PAF is the FC-20 for stopping gap and J-31 is the aim plane

 

[Thorough Pro]

How hard is it to reverse engineer an 'engine' when you're already at the brink of creating a domestic one ?

Design is not that big a problem, Metalurgy here is the real issue.

 

[Safriz]

Design is not that big a problem, Metalurgy here is the real issue.

Metal alloys can be sussed out easily from the samples.
Its the techniqyes used to make them is difficult.

 

[Thorough Pro]

I don't know why people on forums are so interested in engine only. May be its just a point of discussion for you guys. The current engine is doing great, PAF is happy with it. Plus, some tweaking with their basic design has increased their performance and reliability. The current needs of JF-17 is full filled by the current engine. It generates enough power to perform well even with greater weapon load. New engine discussion would be required when Block-III will commence, till then necessary tweaking and refinement in current engine is enough for PAF.

Replies to bolded part in same order.

As far as I know people on this forum are interested in many more things besides engines, like AESA Radar, Improved Avionics package, In-air refueling probe, twin rails for missiles, Raad integration, etc etc but most of these things depend on a more powerful engine in one way or the other, hence more discussion about engine. Second, without engine there would be NO Thunder, all other things can be compromised.

Current engine is doing "GOOD", PAF is happy becaus ethey DO NOT have any choice, if they can get GE or P&W engines they will not take 24 hours to mae a decision (ignoring sanction threat).

Why do people keep saying that by "Tweaking" we have improved the performance, as though we know more about that engine then the manufacturer. Jet engines are very complex machines they can not be tweaked like that to get better performance. It's not like replacing original jet valves in 80' Corolla withh bigger ones to get more power. When we use the term "Performance", it's notjust power its a combination of multiople factore which include power, fuel economy, wear and tear, engine life, etc. etc.

Officially there is no block II or III. This term is coined by PDF fans only, correct term should be batch. Ther eis a huge difference in term "Block" and "Batch". Now that there is no concept of III block (atleast as of now) then relating the engine to it is meaningless.

Because there are no significant differences in airframe design of three batches of 50 Thunders each, new improved engine RD-93MA (if available and viable) can be replaced in any number of jets regardless of which batch they belong to.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Don't worry we have some

Is this confirmed or just a fan boy thing? Does PAC have them or the private firms? Never heard anything in this regard before..