JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[satishkumarcsc]

Dear Satish Kumar,

You are correct in some way but what you said is the perception and story told by the US in the history books. When I was pursuing MSc in UK, I was friends with a German person who was pursuing PhD in Aero Eng. We book got into a discussion about aircrafts and F22s and F117 Nighthawks. He stopped me for a moment and digged out the old german book of aeronautics. I don't know if that was commercial book or may be some drawings of the first german stealth fighter aircraft. He told me the German perspective and he clearly stated that US blackmailed and threated Germany to abort the stealth project. But I guess you will believe what US will feed through its elaborate hard cover history books.

Another thing is, thanks for the link BTW, being an aero engineer doesn't make it easier to design an aircraft. You go and say to your MSc supervisor that you would like to design and build a UAV (not even an aircraft) for your dissertation project. He would laught at you. Even a tiny UAV has to be worked on by a team, one person dealing with aerodynamics, one with landing gear, one with avionics, one with wings (aerofoil mainly), one with tires, one with structure materials, blah blah blah....

You get the point...

I am not arguing with you or anyone else, I am a human and information that I have might be wrong, but you learn through time. And BTW you are a bit deviated in regards to twice the workload of the previous generation. I think you should check out the history of aviation. One example is A380 and B787, both were supposed to be competitors models however both represent completely different customers.

Hope the helps.

Well you are talking about the MAKO project which ran abrest with the F 117 project.

or the lampyridae project

but in the end it was Ufimtsev who started the research in diffraction of radiowaves against differrent surface shapes.

Well JF 17 is a great aircraft for PAF it can easily replace the Q5, Mirage III/V and the F-7 that are in your arsenal with added capability. All I wanted to tell was eventhough it suits your needs it cant be compared to something like the Typhoon, F 22 and the F 35 with is going to be the 'hi' end of the hi-lo mix in many countries for the next 2 decades. JF 17 is comparable to the T-50 and the LCA which will be replacing many light weight fighters in the coming decade eventhough I think both LCA and the T 50 have lost any relevance in their home country's force structures.

 

[Viper0011.]

F22s, F35s and Typhoons all three high tech and over priced war machines are heavily equipped with electronical systems and backup computers and the best of composite materials which helps in stealth.

JF-17 on the other hand is an aircraft with SIMILAR capabilities as these high tech fighters. If you expect a new born company to compete with NASA, is that possible? I don't think so. To develop such high tech things, a lot of resources and experience is required.

I will be honest, F22s and F35s will only be used in very limited situations because of their costs. If Pakistan ever goes to war, we will be fighting same old F16s, Rafales and SUs and I do firmly believe JF-17 is more than capable in bringing these girls down

I see your point about the JFT. You are right. The plane has 4th generation capability, it can look pretty much as far as an F-16 can, can fire bvr missiles, can change modes from AA, AG, to AS, has ECM and jamming, etc (the quality of which is a bit unknown). But all these are capabilities introduced in the 4th generation fighters. In my opinion, Pakistan made great strides and the capability is leaps and bounds ahead of existing Mirages, A-5's, F-16 B15 and F-7's. But a next generation is needed with a different airframe to go to 4.5 gen or semi-5 gen if China will sell the tech. The current airframe will serve the purpose it was designed for well, but it can't be expanded to carry next gen capability and weight loads. BUT, in numbers and with top of the line / proven missiles, its a lethal plan and can protect Pakistan's skys' in my opinion.

The fact about F-22, JSF and Typhoon being 'overpriced' isn't correct. In advanced scientific or military projects, you incur research cost. It's always the first person who pays for the cost. Then as the knowledge becomes available, the next version of the product becomes cheaper or follows economies of scales model. Others gain that knowledge and try it in house but it's never as cumbersome as when the first person conducted research the first time. That's ALWAYS expensive!!

You also have to remember, if the US skunk works is moved to China (never will it happen but hypothetically speaking), and the same labor and quality equipment is available, the cost might get slashed by half. Just due to the fact that the labor component is so cheap. In the Western world, especially the US, the labor (and quality talent at that) is very expensive. A billion RMB in China (Chinese local currency or a Chinese dollar) equals roughly 15 + million USD. So if China spends a billion RMB on research, its not that dramatic of an amount in the US. THAT's when JSF or F-22 might look overpriced as you are used to the cheaper currency.
Remember, the US does a lot of things very well. It CERTAINLY does the military well above anyone else. There is a TON of capability I am sure that'll never be released to the general public. And that's also part of the cost. There's a reason that they are building a few hundred of F-22's. They know that with that limited of a number, it is STILL enough to protect the US interests across the globe.
I don't know about Typhoon but you'll be seeing JSF a LOT in the future conflicts. This is a replacement plan for F-16's, F-18's and other American hardware still flying as older jets in NATO countries. The F-22 and the JSF form the high / medium - low combination.

 

[MastanKhan]

JF-17 is a 4th generation fighter exactly as Typhoon, F22 and F35, it is missing two things, very high tech avionics and stealth, otherwise it is as good as the other aircrafts.

Also, I haven't studied in Pakistan but thank you for your comment. I can understand where you are coming from.

Hi,

I am going to commit a cardinal sin---that I have not committed before in these 7 years----hai---qurban jaon mein aap ki sadgi pay---allah---aisee masoomiat----" difference is just the electronics"! My man----if you put a superior avionics package on a BRICK---you will get superior results---and don't forget about the power plant----and the air frame as well.

That is where all the difference is between the leading aircrafts and those fallen behind---electronics----power plant. You put an advanced electronics package on a B52 bomber---load it up with BVR's and load it up with massive jammers and a powerfull search radar---you will have an extremely potent air superiority air craft.

Only if things were so simple as you explained them to be---.

 

[FFlame87]

Yea I guess I lost my way into futile discussion. The whole point of my first post was that it is futile to talk about F22, F35 and Typhoons in JF-17 thread because JF-17 will not only replace but will play a MAJOR role in PAF.

Let me just repeat this F22, F35 and Typhoon Squadrons will not be as large as people think because they are not as economical as F16, F18, SUs and other fighter aircraft. No doubt these high tech fighters play a major role in their respective forces, but when you are at war, their role will be MINIMUM due to unit price and risk of losing the aircraft and overhead prices running such high end power plants.

And I respect everyone who replied to me and their opinion but just read the posts again, did I ever say in any of my post that JF-17 is BETTER than F22, F35 or EFT. I don't think so. So trying to convince me that F22, F35 and EFT are much better is absolutely non sense because I already accept that fact. But that's not what I was discussing about.

I said JF-17 is a 4th Generation fighter SIMILAR to F22, F35 and EFT. JF-17 is value for money, the structure, the armament arrangement and capability, avionics and power plant provided by JF-17 is a huge benefit in the cost POV when it is sold to foreign countries/ locally unlike the F22, F35 and EFT.

Mind you, JF-17 will also have multiple large squadrons probably replacing F7PGs and even low end F16s in PAF. Can you do a cost based analysis and prove me that USA will have multiple large squadrons of F22s, or Israel will have large squadrons of F35s or Europeans will have large squadrons of EFTs which will replace their current attach fighters.

I think you should go and research about F22, F35 and EFT projects and the manufacturers themselves claim they are overpriced and their price can not come down due to high end avionics, high end manufacturing techniques/ materials, etc. So, what's the discussion about here?

JF-17 or superiority of rare high end fighters which will probably never make a huge chunk of any air-force in the world.

This discussion will be nullified if this year was 2020 and scientists have developed new cheap ways of manufacturing. Our knowledge and talent is not holding back the development in the world, it is the costly manufacturing techniques requirement.

 

[FFlame87]

You also have to remember, if the US skunk works is moved to China (never will it happen but hypothetically speaking), and the same labor and quality equipment is available, the cost might get slashed by half. Just due to the fact that the labor component is so cheap. In the Western world, especially the US, the labor (and quality talent at that) is very expensive. A billion RMB in China (Chinese local currency or a Chinese dollar) equals roughly 15 + million USD. So if China spends a billion RMB on research, its not that dramatic of an amount in the US. THAT's when JSF or F-22 might look overpriced as you are used to the cheaper currency.
Remember, the US does a lot of things very well. It CERTAINLY does the military well above anyone else. There is a TON of capability I am sure that'll never be released to the general public. And that's also part of the cost. There's a reason that they are building a few hundred of F-22's. They know that with that limited of a number, it is STILL enough to protect the US interests across the globe.
I don't know about Typhoon but you'll be seeing JSF a LOT in the future conflicts. This is a replacement plan for F-16's, F-18's and other American hardware still flying as older jets in NATO countries. The F-22 and the JSF form the high / medium - low combination.

Yes you are correct with movement to China and all but lets be honest here, do you really think US with its high tech secrets will move to China - The Next Big Super Power. I don't think this will ever happen.

And as for replacement in USAF with F16s and F18s, I highly doubted it and this can only be proven wrong with passing time. Currently due to financial crisis, esteemed organizations such as NASA and Boeing is also struggling financially let alone the other corporates.

Financial crisis grips us all around the world. So, the choice and discussion will depend on the current situation.

 

[Nishan_101]

I am quite sure that there might be some 5th generation JV with China that will be available for production in 2020.

 

[FFlame87]

Apples with oranges or Orangatangs with Hippos, first understand the point then be so judgemental. I bet you read first two lines of my post and then hit reply to answer rudely, that's all your capabilities are I guess.

Let me explain it this way:

Why do corporates or major organizations don't transfer the softwares to latest softwares as soon as they are out i.e. As soon as Windows 8 comes out, you really think NASA, Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrup Grumman and other major manufacturers will turn to Windows 8. I don't think so.

I can say with certainity that NASA still uses Windows XP on most of its computer systems. Why? Because of their reliability.

F22, F35 and EFT are not yet tested in modern warfare situations. Yes you can be right, a small amount of these can take out a whole airforce because of their long range detection system and laser guided missiles. But it can also be that they all fall out of the sky because of malfunction in their electronical systems like it happened in Alaska with one of the F22s. I don't know! What I mean is anything can happen.

Let's be clear on one thing. I am not comparing F22 with JF17 technically because that would be absurd. I am comparing the high tech aircrafts with JF17 in real world (real warfare) conditions. Governments will think not twice not thrice but maybe five or six times before sending in a squadron of F22s because of their high unit price, operational cost and maintenance cost. They would take the risk of sending F18s and F16s to tackle the war situation at present. And this situation can be repeatedly found in the history.

I hope I am clear about this.

 

[Tehmasib]

 

[gambit]

Well it is an open secret that F 117 wasn't an American design

Yes, it was.

...it was a design formulated by Piotr Ufimtsev and he was smuggled into the US in the late 60s. He later worked in the University of California.

Ufimtsev designed no such thing. He was not in aviation. He was basically an EM scientist. He wrote the book on how EM signals behaves on contact with a body and more importantly -- how to predict those behaviors. I have the text book and it was not the sort of a 'cookbook' on low radar observable. The SR-71 was technically the world's first 'stealth' aircraft but its shaping techniques did not came close to what the F-117 did. That was because Lockheed did not have the predictive math that Ufimtsev formalized.

Finally, Ufimtsev was not smuggled into the US but immigrated legally.

What you are talking about is the flying wing design of the 1940s that was first seen in the HO-228 by the Horten brothers that was adopted by the North American Aviation in the design of the B2 Spirit.

The flying wing design was chosen not because of its inherent low radar observable nature but because of its inherent long range capability. Hitler wanted a weapon that could strike CONUS and aerodynamicists already knew that for intercontinental distances, a high lift and low drag design is a must. The flying wing was it. Its low radar observable nature is incidental.

Just because they are stealth, they are not invisible.

No one -- except popular media -- in the field uses the word 'invisible'. In fact, in radar detection nothing is 'invisible'. What 'stealth' does is reduce the distance in which an object will become 'visible' to the seeking radar.

Radar technology is also advancing at a good rate and sure there are high tech radars which can detect these so called stealth aircrafts not to mention over propagated F22.

Of course there are radars that can detect 'stealth' but they have their own problems in deployment. So difficult are these problems that none are actually deployed with any credible claims of efficiently detecting 'stealth'.

BTW I am not saying they are crap planes, undoubtedly they are pretty capable but they are not GOD.

For now -- they are.

JF-17 on the other hand is an aircraft with SIMILAR capabilities as these high tech fighters. Many improvements can take place in order to improve the designs and we can even make it stealth. If you expect a new born company to compete with NASA, is that possible? I don't think so. To develop such high tech things, a lot of resources and experience is required.

No, you cannot. Am sure some kind soul will direct you to the appropriate posts and discussions where you will learn why not.

If Pakistan can produce JF-17 as their first ever home grown aircraft. Then just think what we will produce inshAllah within the coming 50 years.

Allah have nothing to do with this. Physics and money does.

Let me tell you guys a secret. F117 so called the stealth fighter is purely designed by and engineered by the German engineers but USA stopped their project by blackmailing and threats and stole their idea.

Wrong.

 

[Viper0011.]

Yes you are correct with movement to China and all but lets be honest here, do you really think US with its high tech secrets will move to China - The Next Big Super Power. I don't think this will ever happen.

And as for replacement in USAF with F16s and F18s, I highly doubted it and this can only be proven wrong with passing time. Currently due to financial crisis, esteemed organizations such as NASA and Boeing is also struggling financially let alone the other corporates.

Financial crisis grips us all around the world. So, the choice and discussion will depend on the current situation.

Re-read my post again. I never said that US will move its fighter production to China. That's suicidal considering they are the future foes. I said 'hypothetically speaking' , just to use the context as an example.
Second, JSF is NOT just a US project. It involves investment form many countries. So this WILL be produced in large versions. In fact, LM also identified Pakistan as a potential buyer past 2020 when they'll need to start looking into replacing their F-16's. They may not sell it to Pakistan or they may sell an 'export' version. Time will tell. But, in the market assessment plan, Pakistan was also listed!! So this plane is BOUND to be produced in large number. They'll standardize the platform, JSF for the AF, the Marine and the Navy. That way, maintenance and support costs will be cheaper due to it being the same design. Right now, USAF, USN and Marines use different types of aircraft like F-15, F-16, F-18, etc and the maintenance costs are high due to needing different specialized mechanics and equipment.
Financials have nothing to do with this. The US is a MIT (military industrial complex) so it'll remain ahead of others. Especially when others are coming up with different weapon systems, it gets even more critical for a country like the US to stay ahead. So financials may have an impact on F-22 production line, but it won't have any impact on JSF

 

[Viper0011.]

I can say with certainity that NASA still uses Windows XP on most of its computer systems. Why? Because of their reliability.

F22, F35 and EFT are not yet tested in modern warfare situations. Yes you can be right, a small amount of these can take out a whole airforce because of their long range detection system and laser guided missiles. But it can also be that they all fall out of the sky because of malfunction in their electronical systems like it happened in Alaska with one of the F22s. I don't know! What I mean is anything can happen.

Let's be clear on one thing. I am not comparing F22 with JF17 technically because that would be absurd. I am comparing the high tech aircrafts with JF17 in real world (real warfare) conditions. Governments will think not twice not thrice but maybe five or six times before sending in a squadron of F22s because of their high unit price, operational cost and maintenance cost.

Dude, not trying to be rude. But I think you need a few more years under your belt, out in the field before you can start these discussions. Just sayin'.
Windows roll outs and military tech are two different things. Military does use new tech. In majority of the times, during conflict like Libya, Iraq, etc. Libya was a test bed for Eurofighter, Rafale, etc.

And F-22 and JSF are very thoroughly tested and flown into conflicts. Its just never made public. The small oxygen issue doesn't mean that these will fall out of the sky. It's a silly statement to make hope you realize that. Pilots who complained about it, have been flying the Raptor for years!!! For funding purposes, the media shows it as a big deal when its not. You know that.
Also, what's the point of building a 200 million dollar jet when you can't use it in the time of need? If the US will be scared of operational costs and thus not send these jets in war scenarios when needed, then the US should just scrape all plans to build these. It's useless. You need to understand, these are 'special purpose' planes...F-22 will go in, dominate the sky's within the first few hours of conflict. Take out whatever is flying and then will support JSF and others to conduct their missions. A few of these can form a few hundred line of offensive zone without becoming too visible. And yes, there may be a few loses but that's with every mission!

 

[Water Car Engineer]

The PAF’s IL-78MKPs were spotted at Chengdu three days ago for loading the CAC-built JF-17s in semi-knocked-down condition and ferry-flying them to PAC Kamra.

 

[Esc8781]

Yes, it was.


Ufimtsev designed no such thing. He was not in aviation. He was basically an EM scientist. He wrote the book on how EM signals behaves on contact with a body and more importantly -- how to predict those behaviors. I have the text book and it was not the sort of a 'cookbook' on low radar observable. The SR-71 was technically the world's first 'stealth' aircraft but its shaping techniques did not came close to what the F-117 did. That was because Lockheed did not have the predictive math that Ufimtsev formalized.

Finally, Ufimtsev was not smuggled into the US but immigrated legally.


The flying wing design was chosen not because of its inherent low radar observable nature but because of its inherent long range capability. Hitler wanted a weapon that could strike CONUS and aerodynamicists already knew that for intercontinental distances, a high lift and low drag design is a must. The flying wing was it. Its low radar observable nature is incidental.


No one -- except popular media -- in the field uses the word 'invisible'. In fact, in radar detection nothing is 'invisible'. What 'stealth' does is reduce the distance in which an object will become 'visible' to the seeking radar.


Of course there are radars that can detect 'stealth' but they have their own problems in deployment. So difficult are these problems that none are actually deployed with any credible claims of efficiently detecting 'stealth'.


For now -- they are.


No, you cannot. Am sure some kind soul will direct you to the appropriate posts and discussions where you will learn why not.


Allah have nothing to do with this. Physics and money does.


Wrong.

I thought the world's first stealth aircraft was the A-12 oxcart.

Thank you sir. I am sure you have much more awareness than I have but please don't misunderstand things. I didn't say that JF-17 have similar capabilities in electronics, instead I said JF-17 have similar capabilities full stop. With my little knowledge and no experience, I believe that electronic capabilities of F22, F35 and Typhoons is undoubtedly the best in the world however having the best avionics doesn't mean you will win the war.

Aircraft's capabilities are measured by its overall performance such as speed, aerodynamics, stealth, thrust to weight ratio, range and also avionics and other stuff as well. JF-17 is a 4th generation fighter exactly as Typhoon, F22 and F35, it is missing two things, very high tech avionics and stealth, otherwise it is as good as the other aircrafts.

Also, I haven't studied in Pakistan but thank you for your comment. I can understand where you are coming from.

One more issue I would like to elaborate here, F22 and F35 are overpriced for what they give you, therefore, my well aware friend, USA has only a small squadron of them. One aircraft you can argue about if you want to is the Eurofighter because it's capabilities match its unit price.

I do apologize for being unclear but you shouldn't be so judgemental. Hope that helps.

Search up have blue.

 

[mosu]

thunders are on the way to pakistan

 

[MastanKhan]

Fflame,

I apologize for my harsh comments----it gets so tiring to see country mates bragging about something which it is not.

It is understandable that technology has levelled the playing field---like sony---where is sony---nobody cares any more---technology has caught up to sony.

With the u s---it is just not the aircraft that you are fighting against---it is the air battle group----all the different technologies of air warfare that are at the disposal of the pilot flying those aircraft----. It is okay to wish---.