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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

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Hi,

No it wasn't-----at that time paf had analysed that the pak india peace deal was affirmative---it would be a waste to spend that money on fighter aircraft---.

Otoh india was extremely concerned that with all the american and european markets opening up to pakistan's weapons purchase---india would have another setback. If pak purchased 4th + gen air craft on a fast track---india will be in a terrible position---that is why they were pushing for peace.

It was all about the timing---wars are all about the timing---Napoleone lost his battle by 1 minute---the japanese admiral Yamamoto lost it by what 15 minutes to 1/2 hour or an hour----that is the time it would have taken to replace the bombs with torpedoes on the air craft carriers---.

Between 2002 to 2005 pakistan was the cream puff to the world----since 2007 it has become trash dumpster.

Let me try to dumb this down for you -- PAKISTAN DID NOT HAVE THE MONEY -- In the middle of 2002 they only had $6 billion in reserves --- by the middle of 2012 these reserves were still less than $12 billion and maybe you forgot that little issue of the massive earthquake in 2005 -- by 2008 the reserves had dipped to only one months worth of imports and bankruptsy loomed large-- When exactly did they have $10-12 billion dollers to spare on 100 F-16 BLOCK 52's or whatever it is you think they should have bought????Once again please confirm where you are getting these half baked nonesense ideas from?

I am all for sticking to discussion focused on the JF-17 and that is why I come to this thread - but when I see idiots making stupid statements like PAF has screwed up by not ordering 100 block 52's I feel obliged to point out the obvious.
 
And just an info,Ive read someone talking about Rafael or gripens options instead of Jf 17, all the money came from US as A collation support fund. So pakistan is bound to spend that money to buy aircrafts or any thing from any other country except for USA.I hope that clears everything. and now stick to topic. Off topic replys would be deleted:drag:
 
The engines are certainly not good I can post numerous images of IAF Mig29 baaz landing on single engines with one engine shutoff.. think what would happen to a JF-17 in similar situation RD-33 have a poor MTBO with 400 hours and even less if currency hour is more during sorties... Mig29 is made as such that only 4 men can change the engine in very less time.. is JF-17 designed as such.. assuming it is.. are the supplies ensured assuming yes(much like India since in most blizzard situation as said by your Chinese friend they would supply engines to both India and Pakistan n case of war which is highly unlikely even in a die-hard fanboy imagination.).. do they have overhaul facilities for Kimovs in Pakistan... many holes my friend If you are willing to look into... I assume Pakistan isn't China that they can churn out a turbo-fan in one night's time... and that to better than what Russian have done in so many years of their aircraft anufacturing.

And now you are drifting the entire discussion to the quality of engines rather than answering my question :) one cannot expect anything less than this from Indians who are master of twisting the topics when ran out of argument.

In your own argument, you said there is no immediate threat of war between Pakistan and India, so it does give us ample amount of time to fix all the issue with engine or simply change it with more advanced WS-13.
 
Th PLAAF pilots have themselves complained about poor performances of Chinese engines(There's a very good document on internet which shows the shortcomings in their manufacturing process.)..a simple thing as their engineers working in 4 shifts(different sets of men) rather than two have serious implications on the quality of products they make.

Even Russian engines (from 80s) barring Type 30 have struggled to match with their western opponents (much of which is due to funding issues)... Russians have struggled to reach T/W ratio of 10 with their latest engines while China hardly manages 7 where as the latest American and European engines come with a T/W ratio of 11+.

I know where India stands.. the CCP propaganda channel doesn't work here.

More like yr propaganda will not work here... The very fact china has decline from number 1 weapon importer to number 4 while India roses to world largest importer more or less tells you china indignenuous weapon are working. The straight fact, Russia weapon export to china is dropping to all time low.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...cations-russian-salyut-al-31f-jet-engine.html

This level of improvement in the engine's design demonstrates that the Chinese have achieved near autonomy in the support of these Russian-made engines. Russian specialists who spoke to Jane's state that this is "another example of how the technology sold to the Chinese during the 1990s has now been fully assimilated by them. It is only a matter of time before the engines that China produces will be as good as or better than anything designed here in Russia".

International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Report from the 2010 Chinese Defense Electronics Exhibition (CIDEX): Growing Industry – Advancing Technology

2) Chinese Defence Products Today: State-of-the Art

Chinese defence products were once thought of as being moderately capable copies of previous-generation hardware that contained attributes of Russian, European and Israeli designs.* Some of those bloodlines can still be seen in their designs, but the products now being seen at an expo like CIDEX show that Chinese firms have capabilities that approach first world industrial, state-of-the-art levels of sophistication.

In the 1990s, when the Russian defence was in danger of drying up and closing its doors due to an almost complete collapse in any funding from their own government, it was China that saved the day. China bought billions in military hardware from Russia, but it also sent its engineers, designers and technicians to study inside of Russian industry to learn how the weapons it was purchasing had been developed in the first place.

This transfer of technological know-how, plus some enormous investments by the Chinese military into its state-owned industries (what more than one Russian has referred to as “uncontrolled and rampant modernisation”) has produced a defence electronics industry that far outstrips the size and capacity of that which existed in Russia when Chinese industry first began their cooperation with Moscow in the early 1990s.

Today the former students (the Chinese) have become the masters.* Chinese industry now has the ability to produce components that the Russian electronics industry (after almost two decades of no investment by their government) is no longer capable of either designing or manufacturing.* The initial failure rates on the production of transmit/receive (T/R) modules for the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars being designed for the Mikoyan MiG-35 and the Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA 5th-generation fighter, for example, were so high that it would have bankrupted any western firm involved in a similar programme.

Not surprisingly, this year’s CIDEX show saw groups of Russian specialists going through the halls and looking for components that they could source out of China to be utilised in Russian-designed weapon systems.* Russian specialists will point out that they are now at a huge disadvantage to the Chinese in two very significant respects.

One is that the commitment by the central government in resources to the defence electronics sector is both sustained and serious.* “They can take a field where there is nothing but flat land and wild grass,” said one Russian company representative, “and the next thing you know there is a full-blown factory or design centre there turning out a world-class product.”

The other advantage to China is the unfortunate reality of actuarial tables.* Younger scientists and engineers who are needed in Russia to form the next-generation of weapons designers are leaving the nation in droves.* A few years ago the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) estimated that 70,000 scientists and specialists from Russian defence institutes and military-industrial complex enterprises had left the country.

A documentary on the subject produced by Moscow’s NTV stated “the nuclear physicists, experts in electronic equipment, virologists and biotechnologists did not leave Russia empty-handed.* They took secrets with them and presented their former foes with the weapons they had themselves developed.”

The documentary went on to claim “according to CIA data, in the first half of the 1990s thousands of Soviet specialists in the field of nuclear and missile technology left for the Middle East.* They worked there in violation of the treaty on non-proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and the MTCR.* From the Arzamas-16 centre several people went to work in Iraq.* Russian scientists worked in Iran and Libya.* Forty nuclear scientists immigrated to Israel.* Thousands of Russian specialists in the field of nuclear and missile technologies developed programmes to improve armaments in China.* Our scientists are willing to work anywhere they are paid.”

The consequence is that whereas the age of the average defence industrial scientist or engineer in China is about 30 and around 40 in the US – it is 50 years or more in Russia.* China’s industry is growing and advancing, while Russia’s will effectively be dying off before too long.
 
Let me try to dumb this down for you -- PAKISTAN DID NOT HAVE THE MONEY -- In the middle of 2002 they only had $6 billion in reserves --- by the middle of 2012 these reserves were still less than $12 billion and maybe you forgot that little issue of the massive earthquake in 2005 -- by 2008 the reserves had dipped to only one months worth of imports and bankruptsy loomed large-- When exactly did they have $10-12 billion dollers to spare on 100 F-16 BLOCK 52's or whatever it is you think they should have bought????Once again please confirm where you are getting these half baked nonesense ideas from?

I am all for sticking to discussion focused on the JF-17 and that is why I come to this thread - but when I see idiots making stupid statements like PAF has screwed up by not ordering 100 block 52's I feel obliged to point out the obvious.

12 posts in 5 + years---you can keep on arguing---and those too because you got into a pi-ssing match with me----not a single word for the welfare of the country----.
 
And just an info,Ive read someone talking about Rafael or gripens options instead of Jf 17, all the money came from US as A collation support fund. So pakistan is bound to spend that money to buy aircrafts or any thing from any other country except for USA.I hope that clears everything. and now stick to topic. Off topic replys would be deleted:drag:

Hi,

They should be deleted---but when you have thousands of posts on this board---please come and dictate the terms----. Son---there was life before you realized things were happening----a lot of stuff had happened before you got the understanding that some of the planes were being bought thru u s funds----.

How can these ----- be allowed to post on these boards when they even know the abc.
 
Why are you guys Vcheng,Mastan,Oscar drifting away from the thread which is about JF17. Keep your off topic views to your self's.No one here needs them. If you have no information regarding JF17 then buzz off and create a new thread for your stupid views.Even the Indians are contributing to it and are on topic. The problem is with you guys.


Kids,

What's up with you people with 5 and 10 posts on the board----why don't you for a change take the lead and post your research and information on this board----and stop riding the back of our posts---.

Any one of you----have you ever written a single ORIGINAL piece over here that has just your input and time you have spent in researching it---not a single one I would say----and you people come here dictating terms how it needs to be done and what needs to be said----.

If you people had stayed on the sidelines for so long---please keep your seats warm---.

You kids know when all the information was leaking about the JF 17 on these defence boards between and here and the pakdef and other boards a couple of years ago---when you kids were leaking all the secrets that you heard from your dads and uncles and brothers and listed them on this board----it was this old dad of your who stopped it from happening.

Tac---I told you----if you are such a super st-ud---write about the sanctions of the 80's / 90's and let us see what grade of steel you are made of----other than that you are still the flea---.
 
i am surprised that some members are using beautiful language to change their myths and legends into reality..i think we all know that a small country like us cannot afford any foreign fighter. JF-17 was the only viable solution. either with Chinese or western avionics.

will the block 2 have an IRST or AESA? it seems that this matter hasnt been settled. some chinese site claimed that after first 8 thunders, thunder was equipped with KLJ-10 not KLJ-7 any one have detail what this mean?
 
Hi Oscar,

You guys are writing sob stories all the time---you guys have enemies coming out of the wood works---you guys have the world gone against you all the time---you are always the victim.

You had the united states by the ballz----they were desperate---they were cornered---they had nowhere to run to, except to get help from you---and you people screwed that up as well---untill and unless you people don't get to admit it as a nation----there is no forward motion for you.

That is the first step forward---with sincerety in your heart---admit to your short comings wihtout any rhetoric and sarcasm and then start to make amends----.

Pakistanis are the most suitable candidates for the ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS 9 steps program.

Who is you people?
A dictator?
Is he YOU people?
Nobody disagrees with you on accountability and reflections on past mistakes...
but not everybody will agree to what you see as mistakes as being mistakes.
But instead of accepting that there are people who dont accept your POV.. with respect...(and that goes for TAC and others as well).
you both have chosen to engage in personal attacks and downright ridicule of the nation.
Without actually providing factual support for your arguments by stating ..
Yes .. these were the billions we had in FOrex.. here is the US Congress statement ready to agree to anything..and here is where so and so took this decision wrong which would not have had consequences even in the worst case scenario of Pakistan being sanctioned again.
You were willing to point out why not getting 77 brand new F-16's was a grave mistake.. but not why that decision was taken and what we would have to trade in to get that.


We have had a lot of screw ups.. getting more F-16's might be one.
But I maintain my point that the JF-17 is not one of them.
So baba jee instead of throwing a tantrum on the screwups of the past.. would you please advise on what is to be done now...today.. because that is where you come up with brilliance...always have.
 
i am surprised that some members are using beautiful language to change their myths and legends into reality..i think we all know that a small country like us cannot afford any foreign fighter. JF-17 was the only viable solution. either with Chinese or western avionics.

will the block 2 have an IRST or AESA? it seems that this matter hasnt been settled. some chinese site claimed that after first 8 thunders, thunder was equipped with KLJ-10 not KLJ-7 any one have detail what this mean?

J-10 nose cone is much bigger.... So the slot radar dish shall be almost as big as the cone. I doubt it can fit in JF-17 nose cone which is much smaller.... There is a reason why it need to downgrade to KLJ-7...
 
More like yr propaganda will not work here... The very fact china has decline from number 1 weapon importer to number 4 while India roses to world largest importer more or less tells you china indignenuous weapon are working. The straight fact, Russia weapon export to china is dropping to all time low.

Yes China have declined since Its now making Cheap copies of those same Russian weapons which it used to buy 10 years ago from Russia... is it that hard to understand... Russia is still the largest weapon exporter for China even though most of the Chinese weapons are stolen tech. and copies of old Soviet/Russian weapon system.. It still buys Junk Russian carrier paints it red and blue to parade it before its people as National pride... and even aspires to import more new technologies which it has failed to absorb even after buying a huge number of jobless Russian engineers... A fancy article doesn't change ground realities... neither does the CCP propaganda channel.

And now you are drifting the entire discussion to the quality of engines rather than answering my question :) one cannot expect anything less than this from Indians who are master of twisting the topics when ran out of argument.

In your own argument, you said there is no immediate threat of war between Pakistan and India, so it does give us ample amount of time to fix all the issue with engine or simply change it with more advanced WS-13.

I never twisted the argument.. that was in reply to the query you raised about the engine quality in IAF... Which is nearly the same.

Point out to where did I say there is not immediate threat of war ?... It can happen any time... although its not as tense as It used to be 2 years back but one cannot rule out the possibility.

Integrating a complete new engine requires that engine to have same dimensions... and a complete overhaul of the whole plane is need after which a series of testings take place to identify and rectify the shortcomings which would make for at least 3-4 years If every thing goes right without any glitches... besides there is extra cost.

And in the end of it all that engine has to be good enough.


You see the engine is not a big issue here.. but the availability of those engines in sufficient quantities.. and having their service and overhaul facilities with Russian engineers in Pakistan itself... because the engines would be shipped to China and then to Russia for overhaul and repairing.. so a long process.

Offcourse this applies in a considerable way only If PAF goes for say 100-150 JF-17s with Kimov engines.
 
I never twisted the argument.. that was in reply to the query you raised about the engine quality in IAF... Which is nearly the same.

Point out to where did I say there is not immediate threat of war ?... It can happen any time... although its not as tense as It used to be 2 years back but one cannot rule out the possibility.

Integrating a complete new engine requires that engine to have same dimensions... and a complete overhaul of the whole plane is need after which a series of testings take place to identify and rectify the shortcomings which would make for at least 3-4 years If every thing goes right without any glitches... besides there is extra cost.

And in the end of it all that engine has to be good enough.



You see the engine is not a big issue here.. but the availability of those engines in sufficient quantities.. and having their service and overhaul facilities with Russian engineers in Pakistan itself... because the engines would be shipped to China and then to Russia for overhaul and repairing.. so a long process.

Offcourse this applies in a considerable way only If PAF goes for say 100-150 JF-17s with Kimov engines.

Ok first of all let me quote my own post here which started this argument.


Really? and that's why you didn't post the HINDUSTAN TIMES link directly here .... Ok ... I accepted your wet dream as you are guest here .... Now please care to explain what transpired afterwards. Would you?

If engine is not very good one then Indians must simply have no problem with it, right?

Now please care to identify where i did mention engine quality in IAF in my post?... at least I can't see that.

Secondly, If there is no threat of war, then WS-13 time to mature is not big an issue for me as we would love to have a reliable engine with less service requirements. Couple of years wouldn't make that much difference .... it is not that big time span when we talk about aero-engineering technologies.

OK ... Now avavilbility is issue then i think you must know how many was procured.

Russia to sell additional RD-93 jet engines to Chinal
 
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