JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Edevelop]

Here is what JF-17 has carried in pictures...

 

[SQ8]

I agree, but given the gap between the design parameters of the platform, and the sometimes overly tall claims made, it is important to keep in mind that the JF-17 is not the greatest thing since sliced bread, including the inherent maneuverability of the plane, so that an assessment of its abilities is kept realistic. That is all.

By comparison to what? Again.. official claims should be taken as both sweet and salty..
Whatever performance parameters shown off at the most recent airshow by the Jf-17 seemed lacking when taken in comparison to its potential competitors/adversaries? The rest of them all cost at least three times its price...lets leave that.
But when gauged against any of them in that respect vis-a-vis maneuverability, weapon systems and survivability for that price.. it can hold its own.

I must agree with you over here.
The era of 4th generation fighters was probably the last joyable era. Latter, no idea what the technology will bring, a few birds would be enough for attack and defense.
The bright days of fighters are over, the future is dark. Even shooting down an enemy plane on it's own runway, from your airspace.

No engaging the bogey and 'dogfights', the name should be changed from 'fighter flying' so something else...

The recent libyan conflict was an example of how technology has taken the warfighter to the next level.
Rafale's engaged libyan aircraft on the runway with AASM's.
Today's high G missiles no longer "ballet's in the sky".
What is needed is the ability to detect an enemy quicker.. and be able to send a weapon his way at the speed of thought.
Even in WVR.. fights will no longer last minutes as before.. but mere seconds in which Dogfight missiles are launched and evasive manoeuvres taken to disengage and leave.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Realistically...JF-17 has the potential to become a worthy competitor against F-16 in the African-Asian continent and as far as south american possibly but it is also true the american competition is there US has surplus F-16s They can be prepared refurbished and delivered in time but here comes the cost, weaponry-equipment and other strings attached where JF-17 wins where US is reluctant to offer-provide certain systems-weapons, that is what a Customers looks for VCheng not air show alone.

F-4/F-5/F-6/F-7/A-5/A-4/mig-21/su-17-su22 these are the list of aging old aircrafts that would be/are ready for replacement; FC-1/JF-17 could become potential replacement that F-16 won't be able to replace due to restrictions-regimes and refusal on part of US to provide a better package. IF PAF/China gets gets ready and able to deliver in time weapons-aircrafts it would give hard time to US as no other aircraft manufacture has anything that comes close to JF-17 in cost affordable package and decent platform that far exceeds according to their needs, agree that FC-1 has better maneuverability than those above mentioned older generation aircrafts.

I think it is discussed many a times that PAF should have a potent system-aircraft such as Typhoon-Rafale in inventory in good numbers but lets leave it to be discussed in a specific Thread...

 

[Najam Khan]

Hi,
Thanks for the reply..
I have read on some other websites that this time JF-17 will do a flying display at Farnborough...
Is that true?

On your asking again, i contacted a source. His reply was not less than a horrible news, JF-17 is not gonna be a feature this year. Till Jan FB'2012 was on the list...God knows what happened after that

 

[Armstrong]

On your asking again, i contacted a source. His reply was not less than a horrible news, JF-17 is not gonna be a feature this year. Till Jan FB'2012 was on the list...God knows what happened after that

Any particular reason for that ?

 

[Tempest II]

I made an attempt to check the APPROXIMATE wing area and as it happens I can up with exactly 12.22 sqm for the area shown. Making the whole lifting area 24.44 sqm. I am surprised I came this close to the published numbers.

 

[IceCold]

Hi,

Flying displays are only for show now----nothing more---just to please the crowds----. The days of one upmanship are gone---. Today it is all about electronic packages that the plane can carry and missiles that it can launch---.

Just one question that always arises whenever i see your post. As sir you have pointed out yourself the days of one upmanship are gone, today its all about the hardware(electronics) a plane carries and with that the missiles it can launch. My understanding of all of this is that if JF-17 is equipped with an AESA radar, will it then be not able to take on any thing the IAF has to offer? It is already a BVR capable plane and the data available to us, the SD-10b falls in the same category as the AIM-120c, the only thing it lacks is a proper radar, so in future if its equipped with an AESA radar, how exactly will it fall short against IAF?

 

[Armstrong]

Just one question that always arises whenever i see your post. As sir you have pointed out yourself the days of one upmanship are gone, today its all about the hardware(electronics) a plane carries and with that the missiles it can launch. My understanding of all of this is that if JF-17 is equipped with an AESA radar, will it then be not able to take on any thing the IAF has to offer? It is already a BVR capable plane and the data available to us, the SD-10b falls in the same category as the AIM-120c, the only thing it lacks is a proper radar, so in future if its equipped with an AESA radar, how exactly will it fall short against IAF?

I was under the impression (an impression made by some venerated PDFers !) that the AWACs coupled with our Ground Cover more than compensates for the lack of an AESA in the JFs. In fact, it actually saves up on a lot of money for us !

 

[SQ8]

Just one question that always arises whenever i see your post. As sir you have pointed out yourself the days of one upmanship are gone, today its all about the hardware(electronics) a plane carries and with that the missiles it can launch. My understanding of all of this is that if JF-17 is equipped with an AESA radar, will it then be not able to take on any thing the IAF has to offer? It is already a BVR capable plane and the data available to us, the SD-10b falls in the same category as the AIM-120c, the only thing it lacks is a proper radar, so in future if its equipped with an AESA radar, how exactly will it fall short against IAF?

Question is .. what is a proper radar? In today's advanced electronically steered portfolio's of leading radars it would seem that AESA and AESA alone is salvation. But there are still nations ordering very good mechanical pulse dopplers such as the APG-68,the Captor...
Now if there is a radar that matches the A2A capability of these systems, is it not worthy of consideration??

I was under the impression (an impression made by some venerated PDFers !) that the AWACs coupled with our Ground Cover more than compensates for the lack of an AESA in the JFs. In fact, it actually saves up on a lot of money for us !

The two have little relation as such.. But what it does compensate for is susceptibility of regular Pulse dopplers to extreme electronic jamming. In such an environment an aircraft can still be provided targeting updates via an AWACS D/L.

 

[Storm Force]

Luftwafee

For most countires weapons procurement is political.

Casing POINT pakistan with china

India with Russia France & israel.

FOR JF17 to score over USA veteran combat planes OR over RUSSIAN MIGS with their client states. CHINA & INDEED PAKISTAN has to become their political BACK UP first.

We can see how hard USA was bending to win indian MMRCA stil they lost to french.

THIS IS THE HARD PART gaining the trust and the leverage.

Most of the world have beng buying of usa or russia for over 50 years THIS will not change quickly

 

[Dazzler]

Luftwafee

For most countires weapons procurement is political.

Casing POINT pakistan with china

India with Russia France & israel.

FOR JF17 to score over USA veteran combat planes OR over RUSSIAN MIGS with their client states. CHINA & INDEED PAKISTAN has to become their political BACK UP first.

We can see how hard USA was bending to win indian MMRCA stil they lost to french.

THIS IS THE HARD PART gaining the trust and the leverage.

Most of the world have beng buying of usa or russia for over 50 years THIS will not change quickly

Your post has left a lot to be desired points. There is a much bigger market chunk that is always on a hunt for projects that are titled as "affordable performance". These countries are denied weapons for one reason or another by big players. Saturation is the order of the day which is Chinese policy and has left west on a concern. K-8 is a prime example of what an affordable performer worth to these third world countries as it is being sold like hot, crispy pancakes as far as Americas. Basing on this, it is enough to understand that jf-17 is destined to become a good seller reaching equal or more numbers than K-8. It is not a coincidence that China has Pakistan as a partner in both projects.

 

[Luftwaffe]

stormforce, read my post you need to read and understand it again.
The list of aging old aircrafts that would be/are ready for replacement; FC-1/JF-17 could become potential replacement that F-16 won't be able to replace due to restrictions-regimes and refusal on part of US to provide a better package let me add with-in buying range of the customer(s). IF PAF/China gets gets ready and able to deliver in time weapons-aircrafts it would give hard time to US as no other aircraft manufacture has anything that comes close to JF-17 in cost affordable package and decent platform that far exceeds according to their needs (third world nations).

Not everyone makes political decisions unlike hindustan. Lastly no poor Asian-African nation would chip in $60M (forget life time cost which is $160M) to buy F-16 if its budget is limited and uncertainty with US strings attached and ever ready sanctions and regime change pressure at its throat.

 

[mdcp]

Cost, progress and function Jf17 exceeded paf expectation
I am a bit disappointed by the pace of production, we should push for 50-80 per annum

 

[MastanKhan]

Just one question that always arises whenever i see your post. As sir you have pointed out yourself the days of one upmanship are gone, today its all about the hardware(electronics) a plane carries and with that the missiles it can launch. My understanding of all of this is that if JF-17 is equipped with an AESA radar, will it then be not able to take on any thing the IAF has to offer? It is already a BVR capable plane and the data available to us, the SD-10b falls in the same category as the AIM-120c, the only thing it lacks is a proper radar, so in future if its equipped with an AESA radar, how exactly will it fall short against IAF?

Hi,

Everybody can claim to be the king---but it is not the day for sd10 yet--aim120 is far superior. We are really fortunate to have some pros on this forum and one of them is Gambit----if you remember one of his posts----comparing the size of radar on an su30 to one on a jf17---see---the size that fits in the nose cone matters as well---.

The next thing is---you don't fight a war with yourself----you prepare to fight with your arch enemy---you have to have aircraft that makes your opponent stop and think----you must never fight from the position of an under dog----the mindset sets you up for failure right away----then you have excuses---ohhhhhhh---we already knew we did not have the right equipment----but we thought we could----.

Remember---if it does not look good on the paper and standing next to each other----it has issues. You need to have a hell of an air to air bvr and you need to have numbers behind it----.

Remember the Mongol army of Genghis Khan---his 'hand shot missiles ' arrows ' had a longer range and power behind them than the enemies----secondly----in combat---each of his cavalry carried around a 100 arrows in two containers behind their back.

So, a division of 10000 soldiers had ONE MILLION arrows to shoot at the enemy. Genghis Khan proved some 750 years ago that long range missiles work---you shoot and you scoot---you shoot and you scoot---and keep on shooting and keep on running away and destroy the enemy from a distance----.

That is why you have the su30---a bvr truck---. Air wars are not won on playing cutesies----that is what the paf has been playing for the laqst 20 years now.

 

[Beast]

Hi,

Everybody can claim to be the king---but it is not the day for sd10 yet--aim120 is far superior. We are really fortunate to have some pros on this forum and one of them is Gambit----if you remember one of his posts----comparing the size of radar on an su30 to one on a jf17---see---the size that fits in the nose cone matters as well---.

The next thing is---you don't fight a war with yourself----you prepare to fight with your arch enemy---you have to have aircraft that makes your opponent stop and think----you must never fight from the position of an under dog----the mindset sets you up for failure right away----then you have excuses---ohhhhhhh---we already knew we did not have the right equipment----but we thought we could----.

Remember---if it does not look good on the paper and standing next to each other----it has issues. You need to have a hell of an air to air bvr and you need to have numbers behind it----.

Remember the Mongol army of Genghis Khan---his 'hand shot missiles ' arrows ' had a longer range and power behind them than the enemies----secondly----in combat---each of his cavalry carried around a 100 arrows in two containers behind their back.

So, a division of 10000 soldiers had ONE MILLION arrows to shoot at the enemy. Genghis Khan proved some 750 years ago that long range missiles work---you shoot and you scoot---you shoot and you scoot---and keep on shooting and keep on running away and destroy the enemy from a distance----.

That is why you have the su30---a bvr truck---. Air wars are not won on playing cutesies----that is what the paf has been playing for the laqst 20 years now.

BVR Tatics will only work if possess far superior electronics warfare than yr opponent. Which is why agility on modern fighter jet is a must. Egypt warship possess far superior long range SSM but still could not register a hit on israel warship during the 1967 war due to the superior Israel ECM. Same in the warfare. A series of effective jamming on BVRAAM will most likely negate the long range missiles and end up close range dogfight. That is assume the vs side are equally same level of technology.