JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Mani2020]

Oops! One more dreamer. The least RCS of nonstealth fighter is EFT and rafael (As per their claim its RCS is <1m2). At fully loaded (without Drop tank) They will have RCS of 3-4m2 (Discussed in PDF many times and agreed by RCS experts). Its also discussed that RCS reduction for 4th gen fighters are of not much use..

With the advent of better radars, RCS of 3m2 is quite targetable.. No matter what you do with JF17, you can not bring down it RCS. The minimum RCS you can get (In loaded configuration) is 4m2 (assuming Naked JF17 contribute only 1m2 (frontal RCS))..


A JF17 with Internal weapon bay is waste of resources, looking at the size of JFT I don think that it can keep more than 2 AAMs under its belly.

If you go my way, Pakistan not need any penny to spend for defense. But if you insist, O think its better if Pakisan joins J20 or similar project with China...

He misunderstood it, by stealth we meant J2X (a new design) and not Jf-17 stealth version , In further blocks of jf-17 the RCS will be reduced but making it stealth is not feasible until and unless some major redesigning of the airframe happens and if that happens it will result into a new breed so will not be named as jf-17 rather something else .

While J2X is a proposed stealth design for PAF ,still in initial stages so can't expect to be out atleast not before 3-4 years .

On the other hand Jf-17 will come in blocks and the improvements in jf-17 will be made in blocks and batches , By block we mean block-1 and block-2 etc every succeeding block will have major changes compared to previous block, while by batches mean batch of 50 aircrafts than 50 from second batch and so on .... the batches can be from the same block but they will have some minor improvements from the previous batch , as per PAF after every 50 aircrafts the next 50 will have some improvements as these improvements will be minor so will not be named as another block ,

Like if block-2 has 100 aircrafts , it means 2 batches of 50 the later 50 will have some improvements as compared to previous 50 , This is the continuous improvement strategy of PAF . I hope you understood

 

[itaskol]

We ARE working on a stealth JF-17. I guess you were off for a month so you didn't see the post.

the final version of JF 17 willl not have Internal weapon bay. it is a too small singelengine fighter.
even the final version of J 10 will not have Internal weapon bay.

IF insist to build internal weapon bay then what kind of weapon it can carry?
and it will much more expensive than the original target price. JF17 is in fact a cost price oriented project to replace F 7/A5.
and we curenntly really dont have single engine stealth fighter project. even we together develop it later , it will be a long time. and at that time india has already T 50.

dont wast money on semi stealth fighter project like semistealth JF17. semi stealth is not effective.

the budget of Pakistan defence is much smaller than Indian.
and airforce based really a lot on money. it is the hardst way to balance the power of IAF. the sadly fact is that India AF is much richer than Pak AF.

the best way to balance Indian military thread is thousands missiles and guidingrocket + (submarine which is capble of launching longrange missile)
to develop a cruissemissil or balastic missiel is much more effective and cheaper than build a semi stealth fighter. and it can be stored for a long time
and you can build this all by your own that no one knows how many you really have. maybe only some parts need to be imported.
hiding missles in tunnel under mountains and seacoast.
+ system and satellite for guiding and spying.

 

[gambit]

We ARE working on a stealth JF-17. I guess you were off for a month so you didn't see the post.

As much as Pakistanis can take pride in their military...

That huge spike is from the SINGLE vertical stabilator. Other than coating the entire aircraft with RAM, regardless of anything else we can do to an aircraft like internalize all weapons or curve out all flat regions, as long as the JF-17 has that single vertical stab, it WILL BE DETECTED. So please be realistic.

 

[Beast]

There is no stealth JF-17 but a new JXX offer by China to Pakistan. It is something similar to F-35. Single engine and internal weapon bay. But that will take time.

 

[Imran Khan]

There is no stealth JF-17 but a new JXX offer by China to Pakistan. It is something similar to F-35. Single engine and internal weapon bay. But that will take time.

don't worry we are not in hurry let china take time and made for us something nice .

 

[Viper0011.]

??? are you serious man? You are going to show this picture and think there is no one who knows how high res radio cameras work and how the stealth can be seen with those? Let me ASSURE you that your statement is very inaccurate. I am not at the liberty to state the reasons as that's sensitive stuff because I'll have to give you example to comprehend. But rest assured, you don't have radio cameras taking pictures in less then 5 mile radius across any country. Enough said. Also, just so you know, the ONE vertical stab you mentioned (which has nothing to do with how stealth and radars work compare to your 'high resolution radio image', can be designed in a way that it becomes a deflector. That's not a space shuttle design change. It is somewhat of complex geometry of shapes and minimizing radar cross section through absorption and deflection of radio beam being pointed from long distance. Energy decomposition and re-channeling if you will.

 

[gambit]

??? are you serious man?

Yes, I am.

You are going to show this picture and think there is no one who knows how high res radio cameras work and how the stealth can be seen with those?

You totally missed the point. That was not about cameras but about the EM graph.

Let me ASSURE you that your statement is very inaccurate.

Do not assure. Show. Do not use paywalled sources. If you must use paywalled sources, provide the source and just the abstract will suffice.

I am not at the liberty to state the reasons as that's sensitive stuff because I'll have to give you example to comprehend.

I had 'Top Secret' clearance during and AFTER my time in the USAF. I can tell when certain comments begins to toe the line. So do not be shy.

But rest assured, you don't have radio cameras taking pictures in less then 5 mile radius across any country. Enough said.

Yes, enough said. We will be waiting for your sources.

Also, just so you know, the ONE vertical stab you mentioned (which has nothing to do with how stealth and radars work compare to your 'high resolution radio image', can be designed in a way that it becomes a deflector. That's not a space shuttle design change. It is somewhat of complex geometry of shapes and minimizing radar cross section through absorption and deflection of radio beam being pointed from long distance. Energy decomposition and re-channeling if you will.

I sense there is some coherence here. But am curious as to how the single stab has nothing to do with radar detection. And please, this is not about cameras.

 

[Viper0011.]

My man, there is one thing I've learned in my career and that is, don't ever get into my di**** bigger than yours conversation as it turns out to be counter productive. The point is that neither I have to prove anything to you nor was I trying to derail the thread.
Just like you worked in USAF, there are others who may have or still do in USAF and other areas of aerospace. And people also have your level's or above clearance (please don't respond by saying that the top secret is the 'top' clearance out there as you may be making an invalid statement). So, like I said. Not trying to change the subject or trying to prove anything here (as I can't).
In my humble opinion backed by experience and knowledge, I wrote what I wrote. Can't say a word more to it than what I've already said. If you'll get emotional and call me a layer and without proof, etc, etc, that's fine. You have a right to . I am more than sure that sometime in the future, certain information will me made public about stealth and how it really works.
There are A LOT of things in the world that have no sources but they exist . I still wonder if there is an actual Santa Clause out there or a Unicorn or an Area of some sort....nuff said!

 

[Pfpilot]

The jf-17 with a v shaped nose is hardly meant to be a stealth plane and has never been claimed to be one. Without internal weapons carriage, the rcs will with any combination of missiles or bombs on the wings will increase dramatically.
As has been mentioned a few times already, the stealth aircraft that Pakistan may one day find itself equipped with is the supposed j-2x designation. The jf-17 is not the stealth aircraft at all, the PAF is not totally incompetent to pit a low rcs jf-17 against a true stealth aircraft such as the PAK-FA, which will not only have a comparatively lower rcs, but also a powerful enough radar to detect the jf-17 at a sufficient distance.

 

[gambit]

My man, there is one thing I've learned in my career and that is, don't ever get into my di**** bigger than yours conversation as it turns out to be counter productive. The point is that neither I have to prove anything to you nor was I trying to derail the thread.
Just like you worked in USAF, there are others who may have or still do in USAF and other areas of aerospace. And people also have your level's or above clearance (please don't respond by saying that the top secret is the 'top' clearance out there as you may be making an invalid statement). So, like I said. Not trying to change the subject or trying to prove anything here (as I can't).
In my humble opinion backed by experience and knowledge, I wrote what I wrote. Can't say a word more to it than what I've already said. If you'll get emotional and call me a layer and without proof, etc, etc, that's fine. You have a right to . I am more than sure that sometime in the future, certain information will me made public about stealth and how it really works.
There are A LOT of things in the world that have no sources but they exist . I still wonder if there is an actual Santa Clause out there or a Unicorn or an Area of some sort....nuff said!

That is a terrible way to evade. If you really know what you are talking about, you should have no problems at all finding publicly available sources to support your arguments.

 

[Safriz]

the question remains that how important is stealth?
looking at the fact that stealth planes always sacrifice functionality for stealth.
also one of the best planes in the wotld the eurofighter tuphoon is not stealth..
so may be stealth is not that important afterall.
plus....doesnt the RCS change with aspect? PAKFA has rcs of 0.whatever meter square if seen from the front..from any other angle the rcs will be different..so a plane cannot be srealth from all angles

and the cost of stealth...jf-17 is around 20 million a piece while the "stealth" pakfa is 100 plus mlion a piece....so in that money PAF can have 5 jf-17s.
so which is better..one expensive stealth plane with complications or many simple costeffective nln stealth planes.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

the question remains that how important is stealth?
looking at the fact that stealth planes always sacrifice functionality for stealth.
also one of the best planes in the wotld the eurofighter tuphoon is not stealth..
so may be stealth is not that important afterall.
plus....doesnt the RCS change with aspect? PAKFA has rcs of 0.whatever meter square if seen from the front..from any other angle the rcs will be different..so a plane cannot be srealth from all angles

and the cost of stealth...jf-17 is around 20 million a piece while the "stealth" pakfa is 100 plus mlion a piece....so in that money PAF can have 5 jf-17s.
so which is better..one expensive stealth plane with complications or many simple costeffective nln stealth planes.

Well the thing is PAK FA is not the only aircraft in the IAF. By the time PAK FA enters there will be MMRCA, SU 30 MKI Upgraded Mirage 2000 and the MiG 29 UPG. The advantage that PAK-FA brings is it's reduced observability which is an added advantage to our airforce.

There are a few things that stealth acheives...it is seriously annoying. Lets say a stealth aircraft is like a long range sniper. Why dont you read about the Iran-Iraq war and you will know how the Iranian F 14 fought with the Iraqi air force.

 

[Safriz]

The thing is that the worthiness of any existing stealth aircraft has necver been proven in an actual ballte field while facing an equally powerful enemy..
Using B-2 stealth over Afghanistan means nothing as they havent got even the basic radars.
Same goes for F-22 raptor or any other stealth...Never proven in actual combat.,...I read on another forum that F-22 when entering a friendly country's military exercise are out of bound for all ... and they cannot guage the plane's features during exercise...If anybody has any information to deny this,please fel free to post links and info..
So if we say F-22 has RCS of a Bumble bee or a head lice...this info may well be a marketing propaganda by the manufacturers...
If such tall claims cannot be proved independently,they are too good to be true.
Now dont get me wrong..I have witnessed F-22 in an airshow and the plane is as impressive as a plane can get and the maneuvers are unbelievable....But then that was an airshow..and no way of assessing planes radar visibility and many other aspects.

 

[MastanKhan]

My man, there is one thing I've learned in my career and that is, don't ever get into my di**** bigger than yours conversation as it turns out to be counter productive. The point is that neither I have to prove anything to you nor was I trying to derail the thread.
Just like you worked in USAF, there are others who may have or still do in USAF and other areas of aerospace. And people also have your level's or above clearance (please don't respond by saying that the top secret is the 'top' clearance out there as you may be making an invalid statement). So, like I said. Not trying to change the subject or trying to prove anything here (as I can't).
In my humble opinion backed by experience and knowledge, I wrote what I wrote. Can't say a word more to it than what I've already said. If you'll get emotional and call me a layer and without proof, etc, etc, that's fine. You have a right to . I am more than sure that sometime in the future, certain information will me made public about stealth and how it really works.
There are A LOT of things in the world that have no sources but they exist . I still wonder if there is an actual Santa Clause out there or a Unicorn or an Area of some sort....nuff said!

Sir,

You threw the gaunlet----gambit is a very senior, trusted and respected member on this site---you have yet to prove yourself and your comments and statements----so far it is more of sarcasm and rhetoric----rather than any technical information.

We would appreciate it very much if you could partition your comments in smaller paragraphs---so that they become more visible----thank you---and waiting for a technical response from you---so let's be technical----.

 

[gambit]

The thing is that the worthiness of any existing stealth aircraft has necver been proven in an actual ballte field while facing an equally powerful enemy..

An electronic battlefield is just as deadly as the one using physical missiles and bullets.

Using B-2 stealth over Afghanistan means nothing as they havent got even the basic radars.

How about Serbia...

Same goes for F-22 raptor or any other stealth...Never proven in actual combat.,...I read on another forum that F-22 when entering a friendly country's military exercise are out of bound for all ... and they cannot guage the plane's features during exercise...If anybody has any information to deny this,please fel free to post links and info..
So if we say F-22 has RCS of a Bumble bee or a head lice...this info may well be a marketing propaganda by the manufacturers...
If such tall claims cannot be proved independently,they are too good to be true.

If you insist on using combat as the only criteria, then it would be reasonable to apply the same to radars that claim to be able to detect our 'stealth' aircrafts. But think about it for a moment...Why would they make such claim if there is no validity to the idea of 'stealth' and its being a critical threat?