JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[kiuppal]

this is a cannon

 

[hj786]

http://www.kbptula.ru/eng/str/cannons/gsh23L.htm: GSh-23L
Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23
23mm automatic cannon. Twin barrel "Gast gun" mechanism fires one barrel after the other, for better firing rate and less wear than a single barrel gun.

Basic Characteristics
Round type: AM-23
Caliber, mm: 23
Rate of fire, rds/min: 3000-3400
Muzzle velocity, m/s: 715
Weight, kg:

• cannon: 50.5
• round: 0.325
• projectile: 0.174

I doubt it is imported from Russia like the engine, must be a Chinese-built version of the Russian gun.

Somebody at PakDef says he has visited Kamra and was told that two more weapon stations will be added, one under each air intake (similar to the J-10). He doesn't know when. He also posted a photo of himself standing in a hangar alongside a JF-17 and a PAF officer wearing a JF-17 squadron patch on his uniform.

 

[Arsalan]

http://www.kbptula.ru/eng/str/cannons/gsh23L.htm: GSh-23L
Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23
23mm automatic cannon. Twin barrel "Gast gun" mechanism fires one barrel after the other, for better firing rate and less wear than a single barrel gun.

Basic Characteristics
Round type: AM-23
Caliber, mm: 23
Rate of fire, rds/min: 3000-3400
Muzzle velocity, m/s: 715
Weight, kg:

• cannon: 50.5
• round: 0.325
• projectile: 0.174

I doubt it is imported from Russia like the engine, must be a Chinese-built version of the Russian gun.

Somebody at PakDef says he has visited Kamra and was told that two more weapon stations will be added, one under each air intake (similar to the J-10). He doesn't know when. He also posted a photo of himself standing in a hangar alongside a JF-17 and a PAF officer wearing a JF-17 squadron patch on his uniform.

nice stuff friend..
it is always nice to learn about things that are not discussed much.
great peice of information. keep up with nice work..

regards!

 

[Arsalan]

well HJ786 you made me research on this topic and i found that the plane can also be fitted with a variant Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30. although it is a bit confusing as this is a single barrel gun with firing rate of 1800 - 2000 rounds per min as compared to about 3000 rounds of Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 but still it is the Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30 fitted on modren planes like Su27, Su30 and stuff. perhaps this is done keeping in mind the current warfare scenario where the cannons may see least of action. anyway commin to point the JF can also be fitted with this gun and here are some details about it:

The Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-1 - the actual Russian designation is GSh-301 - (also known by the GRAU index designation 9A-4071K) is a 30 mm cannon designed for use on Soviet and later Russian military aircraft, entering service in the early 1980s. Its current manufacturer is the Russian company Izhmash JSC.

The GSh-301 is a single-barreled, gas-operated cannon weighing 46 kg (101 lb). Unlike many postwar cannons, it is linear action, not a revolver cannon or Gatling gun, with the Russians feeling that the reduction in rate of fire is compensated by reduced mass and bulk.

The GSh-301 has a rate of fire of 1,800 rounds per minute, customarily limited to 1,500 rounds per minute to reduce barrel wear. Despite that, its barrel life is quite short: 2,000 rounds. When firing a continuous burst of 100 - 150 rounds, the barrel is put under so much stress that it has to be replaced. The gun uses an evaporation cooling system to prevent the detonation of a high explosive round inside a heated barrel. This cooling system consists of a cylindrical water tank around the rear end of the barrel. The GSh-301 is equipped with a unique the pyrotechnic mechanism to clear misfires: A small pyrotechnic cartridge is located to the left of the 30mm cartridge chamber. This pyrotechnic cartridge fires a small steel bolt through the side wall of the 30mm cartridge. The hot propellant gases following the bolt into the dud 30mm round ignite the powder charge of that round and firing continues. The manufacturer (Izhmash Arms Plant, Izhevsk) claims its maximum effective range against aerial targets is 1,200 to 1,800 m (3,900 to 5,900 ft).

In combination with a laser rangefinding/targeting system, it is reported to be extremely accurate as well as powerful, capable of destroying a target with as few as three to five rounds. It has been deployed on several different types of fighter aircraft:

Su-27, Su-30, Su-33 and Su-35: 1 GSh-301 in starboard wing root (150 rds. ammunition load)

Su-34: 1 GSh-301 in starboard wing root (180 rds. ammunition load)
MiG-29: 1 GSh-301 in port wing root (150 rds. ammunition load)
Yak-141: 1 GSh-301 on the belly (150 rds. ammunition load)
9A4273 gun pod: 1 GSh-301 flexibly mounted, pod weight 480kg, (150 rds. ammunition load)
[edit]

 

[Arsalan]

to add more the twin barrel variant that can also be accomadated on JF 17 is the GSh-30 dual-30mm-2 cannon

The Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-2 (ГШ-30-2) or GSh-2-30 is a powerful twin-barrel autocannon used on certain Russian military aircraft.

The cannon is not related to the Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-1, but is a heavy-duty gas-operated weapon operating on the Gast principle like the Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23L. Rate of fire is about 3,000 rounds per minute. The weapon is designed to be rugged and resistant to dirt; this makes it relatively heavy. Depleted uranium enhanced armor-piercing shells suitable for the GSh-30-2 are operationally qualified.

The GSh-30-2 is carried by the Sukhoi Su-25 ground attack plane and in external gun pods. It measures 2044 x 222 x 195mm, with a barrel length of 1500mm and a weight of 115 kg. The GSh-30K is a modified version with 2400mm long water-cooled barrels, a variable rate of fire, and dimensions of 2944 x 222 x 195mm. It is used on a fixed mounting on late model Mi-24 helicopters, e.g the Mi-24P.

Manufacturer: KBP Instrument Design Bureau
Type: dual-barrel automatic cannon
Caliber: 30x165mm, electrically primed
Operation: Gast principle
Length: 2044 mm
Weight (complete): 115 kg
Rate of fire: 3000 rpm
Muzzle velocity: 880-890 m/s
Projectile weight: 386-404 g (13.6-14.25 oz)

 

[TaimiKhan]

Changing of JF-17s gun caliber from 23mm to something else would be not envisioned at this time or any time in near future, reason being the Gsl-23mm gun version are used in F-7 & F-7PG versions of PAF, the current J-10 & future FC-20 are also using the same gun, some of the Chinese fighter aircrafts also use this gun and caliber. So for ease of ammo and commonality this gun will be kept.

Also, the higher caliber we go to, it will add additional weight of ammo, reduced capacity and huge cost for changing the guns of entire series of aircrafts and ammo.

And the Gsl-23mm gun I believe is China made as sometime ago read that Russia had stopped production of the 23mm caliber gun as they have changed to the 30mm caliber for their aircrafts.

 

[wangrong]

Changing of JF-17s gun caliber from 23mm to something else would be not envisioned at this time or any time in near future, reason being the Gsl-23mm gun version are used in F-7 & F-7PG versions of PAF, the current J-10 & future FC-20 are also using the same gun, some of the Chinese fighter aircrafts also use this gun and caliber. So for ease of ammo and commonality this gun will be kept.

Also, the higher caliber we go to, it will add additional weight of ammo, reduced capacity and huge cost for changing the guns of entire series of aircrafts and ammo.

And the Gsl-23mm gun I believe is China made as sometime ago read that Russia had stopped production of the 23mm caliber gun as they have changed to the 30mm caliber for their aircrafts.

please see this pic,it's mean Gsl-23mm gun very light

 

[PakShaheen79]

Which gun PAF's F-16A's have? I like that style of gun more than this one on JF-17.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Which gun PAF's F-16A's have? I like that style of gun more than this one on JF-17.

It has a Gatling style gun, 6 barrel i believe. 20mm.

 

[PakShaheen79]

It has a Gatling style gun, 6 barrel i believe. 20mm.

Yup.
Found it right there.

I think it is located at more appropriate when compared to Thunder's AA gun. What u say?

 

[TaimiKhan]

please see this pic,it's mean Gsl-23mm gun very light

Its not just the gun, ammo, ammo drums, plus Gsh-23 has different versions too, with different barrel lengths and the weight isn't that much of the simple gun, its around 50.0KG for Gsh-23L.

But Gsh-30 has a weight of 105KG, nearly double the weight of Gsh-23.

And as for ammo the Gsh-23 ammo is 23x115mm

&

Gsh-30 is 30x165mm

a 7 mm increase in width of round and 50mm increase in length of cartridge, resulting in considerable rise in weight of the ammo. As 30mm round is larger, meaning will take more space and ammo capacity will be reduced.

 

[Tempest II]

Below is my attempt to compare the two systems:

I concluded that if one considers the kinetic energy of each round and the number of rounds per minute, the 23mm system if 71% as effective as the 30mm brother. Assume a target is expossed for a second, it will deliver 70% of the damage. I believe the heavier system will take longer to get to full cyclic rate.

I cannot find the spreadsheet but I did a similar somparison with the Mauser BK-27 on the Gripen and the GSh-23 will deliver more energy per second. I am assuming muzzle velocity here and also non-exploding rounds.

 

[MastanKhan]

Below is my attempt to compare the two systems:

I concluded that if one considers the kinetic energy of each round and the number of rounds per minute, the 23mm system if 71% as effective as the 30mm brother. Assume a target is expossed for a second, it will deliver 70% of the damage. I believe the heavier system will take longer to get to full cyclic rate.

I cannot find the spreadsheet but I did a similar somparison with the Mauser BK-27 on the Gripen and the GSh-23 will deliver more energy per second. I am assuming muzzle velocity here and also non-exploding rounds.

Hi,

That is a good post---but one important factor is---how potent each single round hit of GSH 23 to GSH 30 is to the aircraft.

Is it the same difference if we compare a .308 hit to a .338 lapua round---or a difference between a .308 to a .50 calibre.

I once wathced this documentary of a dog fight between u s F 16's and lufwaffe Mig 29's---the german pilot stated that yeah they may have won the fight---but it would only take one round from his guns to blow up the F 16----were the german mig 29's using the 23 or the 30 or a different gun if you know. Thakns

 

[wangrong]

 

[fatman17]

ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2009

Jane's Defence Weekly

Chinese aero manufacturers open up to engage export market

Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent - Beijing/Dubai

Key Points
Chinese aerospace leaders are becoming increasingly determined to make their mark on the export market

The 60th anniversary of the PLAAF has coincided with a greater degree of openness from the Chinese aerospace industry


Over the last month China's National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC), the state-licensed aircraft export sales monopoly, along with its industrial partner, Aviation Industries of China (AVIC), have both demonstrated an unusual degree of openness in displaying data on their products.

This willingness of Chinese officials to speak at length on both of these areas seems to have coincided with the 60th anniversary of the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) on 11 November.

China's military aircraft industry has been steadily developing a line of products that would allow it to compete on world markets. Newly developed platforms - such as the Chengdu J-10/FC-20 fighter, FC-1/JF-17 strike aircraft and the Hongdu L-15 advanced jet trainer - have been advancing, along with improved versions of older aircraft like the Shenyang J-11/J-11B/BS and F-8 fighters and the Xian JH-7A fighter bomber.

There have also been commensurate advancements in weapon systems, radars and sensors, avionics and state-of-the-art 'glass' cockpit configurations.

CATIC's President and chief executive officer, Ma Zhiping, along with Zeng Wen, one of the company's vice presidents, recently discussed their future plans at length with Jane's . The overall message is that these Chinese aircraft manufacturers can now capitalise on an expanding window of opportunity for their products.

"We have an advantage with our products in several respects," stated the two CATIC officials. "One is that we have already the experience of having exported our K-8 trainer, and so now when we are marketing the L-15 we can offer a full-spectrum training system that includes performance up to the level of an LIF [lead-in fighter].

"Secondly, we are almost always providing a cost-effective solution. We are not working with air forces like the US Air Force, UK Royal Air Force or Royal Australian Air Force that can spend a lot of money; we are working with customers that most of our competitors do not even consider because they need high-performance systems at a low cost of acquisition, plus low operational costs as well."

CATIC emphasised that it is now looking at developing packages of systems that offer multi-role/multi-solutions for smaller air forces. "If the air force in question has a small airspace to defend we can propose a combination of FTC-2000s, JF-17s and K-8s," the officials said. "If they have a much larger territory to defend then we would offer the F-8T in place of or in addition to the JF-17.

"For medium-sized air forces that are more advanced - like Pakistan, which already has F-16s - we can propose a mix of high- and medium-performance aircraft. This combination is highly cost-effective because they have a high degree of commonality across their avionics suite." The "high- and medium-performance" aircraft are, in this case, the JF-17 and J-10, although CATIC officials qualified their position on the latter.

When asked about whether they were ready to deliver J-10s to Pakistan the answer was "not just yet", although there have been numerous reports of a contract signing. The key issue appears to be whether it should be necessary to equip this aircraft with Chinese-made engines instead of the Russian ones currently used.

This relates to the larger issue of China's longer-term relationship with Russia. Chinese officials said openly that they would be willing to buy a large number of the RD-93 engines used in the JF-17, but only if the engine could be produced in a 9- to 9.5-tonne version.

CATIC executives are also unhappy with the unwillingness of Russia to sell them some their latest products. "We have been interested in acquiring new aircraft, such as the Sukhoi Su-35, but thus far this has not been presented as an option for us," they said.