JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[Zarbe Momin]

Development of JF-17 with passage of time is very necessary and we can take lot of stuff and experties from J-10 B model, in this batch of 42 JF-17's we also need; FLIR, IRST completly integrated in fighter not as external pod but jamming pod should be used as external pod, mid flight refuling and CFT (conformal fuel tanks) are very necessary, furthermore at moment we are using Russian engin and rumours are their for chines engin but we should use chines engin but with thrust vectoring and if we get an engin of power without after burn of 100 KN plus thrust vectoring it will be very useful. For radar and avonics we should not be sticked to a single country we should take different part with transfer of technology to build in pakistan and there are lot of countries that can be useful Germany, France, Sweden, Norway, Australia, Canada, Italy, Turkey, China, Japan. It is the same track as we did for atomic research, we bought machines and material which can be used in wide variety of fields and developed in country our own system for uranium enrichment. We can buy electronic developing machines and list of materials whcih can be useful to radar and avonics and no contry would have hesitation to sell raw materials and machines with transfer of technology buy them and develop in our own country with our own requirements and by doing so nobody know what surprise we have in our fighter look down, lock on range and so on and by doing so later on we can also upgrade our old models. This argument first bacht we dont need such stuff and bla bla because it is going to replace A-5, F-7 and old mirages is not clever argument-

 

[thunder rules]

hi..

how are operational thunders at peshawar air base performing is their any news or reviews by pilots abt its performence?

 

[ACE17]

hi..

how are operational thunders at peshawar air base performing is their any news or reviews by pilots abt its performence?

They r nt in peshawar

 

[araz]

araz...and read my post there is nothing i am bashing about. And yes your statements were distorted as i just refined and clarified. lets just talk about PAF as an organization not about other government institutions.

Bhai.
The reason I said you were bashing away was because you are not reading some of the points that i have answered. I dont think in all honesty i am in a position to talk about PAF as an organization as i am not a part of it. Are you or has anyone in your family been a part of PAF? The statement that I said you distorted was a very general statement accepting that like all organizations bad decisions are made in PAF as well. However what you and i do not know is what the reasons are behind those decisions. If you want to comment on a decision you need to know the reaosns behind it, otherwise it becomes a nonproductive waste of time.

Yes i have nothing new to add the old ones are enough to be clarified and answered non has no far satisfactory answers infact non will ever have. I stand correct PAF is just in loops, first were F-7P/F-PG and the statements were we've this problem and that problem and now this day the loops are in form of thunder.

Again more rhetoric rather than substance (with all due respect). I have answered thre reasons behind F7 buy. With international embargo and the M2K deal having gone sour, we had no other choice. Also finances as always have been our wors enemy, something the PAF cannot be entirely blamed for. If you think, we had a choice tell me which plane PAF shpould have bought!!! As to the \Thunder, I dare say you are very premature in your assessments and judgements. I can assure you it will not disappoint you.

apart from F-16s is there any Top high class fighers ever purchased or given a serious thought to buy Non what so ever don't tell me PAF went sweden, france and here and there it means nothing unless you are serious a serious buyer and you buy it and show it. (will discuss FC-20 when its in production for PAF!)

You qoute the f16s and conveniently forget what a headache it has been for us for most of the nintees. Even now , if the truth be told, it is a double edged sword which can come back to haunt you, and yet you see PAF is going headlong into buying more of them. Are they stupid? My friend please remember that in times of need it is far better to rely on what you have at hand which can be used without any restrictions, modified to suit your purposes and have an uninterruptable supply line to you. The french have stabbed us in the back in 2002, when they held on to agosta 90Bs and ROSE upgraded mirages. So where do you go and what do you do? This is the real question which needs answering.
More later
Araz

 

[araz]

i think we had better choice than F7 and old mirages. as i read history we were offered Mirage2000, Panavia Tornado, and even Mig29 and Su27 by Ukrain. Atleast i think these all options were much better than F7 or old ex aussies/french/spanish mirages 3/5.

M2k saga is a long one, and thanks to our beloved mr 10%s greed and the honesty of a great man, it failed to happen.When PAF reenquired after benazir had been shown the door, we were told to take a hike as the prices had gone up significantly.The Tornado was not better than F16s as it was sanctions prone. With Sus and Migs from Ukraine the supply of spares would still have had to come from the russkies and that was a big reason for PAF to say no to them.
Regards
Araz

 

[MastanKhan]

Wow on one hand you are saying we need upgraded weapons to counter India and on the other hand you are saying our WMD's wouldn't count for anything because USA will neutralize them with their contingency plan of taking our missile sites out with air strikes.

So tell me what do you suggest we buy in order to protect ourselves from air strikes carried out by F-22 Raptors, B-2's and B-9's ??

Furthermore, you are saying India will be given anti missile systems that will destroy our WMD's mid air, so by this logic, even if we buy advanced fighters India will probably be provided with Raptors so what are we going to do than?

Even if we assign our total budget to the air force and somehow purchase 50 odd Euro fighters what will that do? India will simply go and purchase Raptors or F-35's. And in that case no international planning will be required to destroy or strangle Pakistan as 16 million Pakistanis will die of hunger.

So from your long speeches it can be concluded that Pakistan is already doomed and nothing can save it now.

I am sorry but i fail to understand if you are merely a pessimist or something else because just two posts from you an Indian member quoted your post and reiterated your points.

Hi,

The u s will support a conventional war between the two---only if we can spill some 'bad blood'---actually the u s will sit on the sidelines and be a monitor---they will watch us and supervise the war.

They know that a war between pakistan and india is a must at this stage---indians are being cocky with what they got---pakistanis have a strut in their stride because of the past excursions----so the U S really really wants the two sides to DUKE IT OUT with conventional warfare. The sh-it needs to be kicked out of someone to bring some sense into them---be it india or be it pakistan---.

As for our nuclear assets---it is a guarantee---the U S has staked out all the pakistan nuclear assets at this time through their surveillance planes---that is why the u s is not talking about pakistanio nuclear threat anymore---gentlement when the u s doesnot talk about an issue puiblicly like it did before---it is time to be concerned---because they have prepared a contingency plan which has a 110% success guarantee.

My man---you understand one part of my comments but then you jump when you read the other. It is not a matter of F 22---It is matter of pakistan playing their hand very badly after the war began in afg---.

You know who gf4australia is---he is a defence analyst---a very professional guy---he runs a defence related forum where world class defence journalists and people of all ranks of the millitary participate alongwith average joe's like me---while discussing this issue with him about 6---7 years ago---he agreed with me that pakistanis failed miserably in cutting out a great deal with the americans after they got that infamous call---.

You see pakistanis have been acting like " ROOTHI BAHU " with the americans----and most of the people on this board still are acting like one.

Pakistanis didnot grasp that what ever happened in thee 90's was a thing of the past---today is a new day---if we have to kowtow---then moisten our lips and suck it deep and don't let go---just like the israelis---just like the indians.

As for your examples odf india going a step ahead0---yes they will----but due to our less covered area---we need lesser number of planes---I would rather have 150 F 16 blk 52's and 100 F 18's or a 100 Raphaels---they would be a major major force multiplier---you need to break down the indian psyche----the su 30---you need to bring on something that can take out the su 30 mano amano.

All this war hysteria is a build up of what the su 30 did against the american F 15's in those excercises---the americans f=d it up for us during those fixed up war games. The indians can't even look down at the ground anymore---.

That is what you need---if somehow or the other you can take their pride ut one time---they will re-think about the whole issue---they are not going to run and get the next best---because it will be costly and then pak gets the next best---it will hinder india to move ahead---it will be like chains around its ankles---if you down the su 30's---you will bring india to the peace table.

That is what a strike aircraft of the paf needs to do---that is what the anticipation was all about---.


Your last para---please explain to me in a little more detail what you mean by that---so I can write a clearer response. Thanks.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Jane's is a western propaganda machine and it is anti french by design as well.

Pak went for ther F 16's in the 80's to counter the indian air strikes against pak nuc assets.

In the early 80's india was basically a russia centric or uk based air force---. Pkaistn air force could have done a coupe de grace if they had ordered a batch of the m2k's at that as well.

You spend the money ahead of time to get the dividens later---how would that have worked---.

If pak had gotten the m2k's as the french desired it---india would have stayed away from it----thus being only a russia centric air force---.

In that case---we would have never faced the sanctionms in the first place because we would not be dependant on the only supplier of aircraft. It was our sole dependance that created the problem.

Witht he F 16's and M2k's we qwould have stayed ahead of the IAF throughout the 80's and 90 till the indians bought the su 30 with their bvrs---even then we would be at 80--90% compatibility with the indian air force---that is all we needed to do---.

The continuous funding of the f 16's was our our own fault---the sanctions were seen to be coming by every other nations diplomats and defence attaches except for the pakistanis---.

What I am saying is that we are repeating the same mistakes over and over---time and again---and it is the same crying game by the pakistanis repeated---either learn to deal with the americans or learn to deal with them---there is no other way out of it---regardless of what you do or what I do---america is there---.

Thsi propaganda about the M2k not being as good as the F 16 has always been a lie---a prejudicial lie against the french---the british could never expect the fench to make a better fighter and strike aircraft than them---the americans wanted the sale of the F 16---the news media told all kinds of lies about the m2k---how it is not good at slow speeds.

all these thinker tankers don't know that the F 86 sabre was also a lousy fighter at lower altitude because bein designed for higher altitudes to intercept russina hgih flying bombers---the pilots who learnt how to fly the plane---learnt how to get the best out of the plane---used the OODA loop from the americans and made that plane a success against a superior aircraft the Gnat.

ASo if pak pilots could do that with the sabre---and we are brag about it is the man behind the machine all the time---then what happens when it come to the m2k---why couldn't the man behind the maqchine make the difference if he was in an m2k---.

You know you thinker tankers---do some research---go to the library and read some material---not some monthly magazines but some serious books about the real stuff.

The greek air force proved everyone wrong---their m2k had a lock on the F 16 and the F 16 could not get out of the lock---regardless of the maneavours it performed---isn't that the only combat incidence where a greek m2k downed a turk F 16 in real combat---.

You see---the proof is right in front of our faces---but we don't want to acknowledge---we always claim about the man behind the machine---but when it comes to m2k---that man suddenly disappears---come on---what is this rooster and bull story.

Either it is the man behind the machine or is it not.

 

[bc040400065]

Rightly said sir. Atleast M2K was better than F7, A5 and Old refurbished mirage 3/5.

 

[Mani2020]

I agree with Mastan Khan, especially in the case of su-30 rightly said that it had created the war hysteria everyone in india is talking about mki's and thats the reason they are jumping on us

Watever about that US-India joint exercises whether it was fixed or not but for the first time someone was there to deal with US might n that made Indians over confident or rather i say that result to their motivation and morale booster, They are placing them right at the top with USAF n might that be the reason for further increasing the quantity of su-30's

For that Paf need countermeasures and immediate one's but sadly we are again in a jigsaw,puzzled n lagging behind ,buying same f-16's that are prone to embargo i dun know wat type of love and affection PAF have with f-16's that even for 18 of them they are feeling out of this world , we have lost mirage2k n now we have lost french equipment due to our poor strategy

I m afraid that with these jf-17's we are not going any where these are good planes but most higly compared with mirage2k

I think PAF need to realize that dogfight days are gone n today its not the man behind the machine rather the machine in the hand of a man , its not 60's were you can jump into a sabre and out maneuver your enemy, now the air fights depend upon radars,weapons, load and many more

Once PAF punch out the Iaf from su-30 supremacy by either going for Rafael or any other aircraft of its caliber than it will b a hell different ball game

 

[IceCold]

No that is not the answer as we had also been operating Mirages 3/5's and a version of Mig 21 (F-7) so M2K and Mig 29 were not entirely new platforms for us. However there were different issues,

1. Mig 29 was twin engine thus expensive to maintain while Sir Fatman17 has already shed light on drawbacks of M2K.

2. For spare parts of Mig we had to contact Russia so it was totally out of question, spare parts of M2K from French were extremely expensive and in the third corner it was Uncle SAM. So what do you when you're between a rock and a hard place?

Anyways he has already answered his own question of "Why PAF choose to develop JF-17 and didn't go for western air crafts"

What you are saying is not wrong either but what i said wasnt completely off the mark either. Migs as compared to F-16s were more prone to sanctions and second as you mentioned twin engine jets was something PAF was not interested in and third we were not getting the migs directly from the source and so no guarantee for the spares.
Also back then F-16s were sufficient for PAF to handle any threat and PAF already had its hand full, we could not afford another induction.

 

[bc040400065]

What you are saying is not wrong either but what i said wasnt completely off the mark either. Migs as compared to F-16s were more prone to sanctions and second as you mentioned twin engine jets was something PAF was not interested in and third we were not getting the migs directly from the source and so no guarantee for the spares.
Also back then F-16s were sufficient for PAF to handle any threat and PAF already had its hand full, we could not afford another induction.

Sir one question. i know Mig29 is not that good in terms of quality and maintenance. But so many people here talking about the spare parts problem if we had gone for mig29 from Ukraine. But If we can get the same mig29's engine for our fighter then please someone tell me why we could not have managed to get Mig29 spares? I think we failed in diplomacy and dealing with other countries most of the times and specialy in defence terms. recent french avionics deal and u214 are examples of it.

 

[bc040400065]

rightly said mani.

one thing we should accept that Thunder can be good against Indian Mig29's , M2K and LCA but for MKI and MRCA i think we need something good. Now 100 odd F16/FC20 are enough against more than 400 MRCA/SU30mki?? I m abit confuse realy. Hope so PAF has some plans for this.

 

[Mani2020]

Sir one question. i know Mig29 is not that good in terms of quality and maintenance. But so many people here talking about the spare parts problem if we had gone for mig29 from Ukraine. But If we can get the same mig29's engine for our fighter then please someone tell me why we could not have managed to get Mig29 spares? I think we failed in diplomacy and dealing with other countries most of the times and specialy in defence terms. recent french avionics deal and u214 are examples of it.

Both are different cases ,firstly jf-17 engines are not directly bought by Pakistan from Russia rather china was involved in all dialogs and we got them through china ,

secondly jf-17 are our aircrafts not russians so russians knew that if they will not provide us the engines then we will get them from other sources but in case of mig-29's we would have been bound to use russian engines and they could have easily exploited the situtaion

Thridly at that time the russian anger was u may say fresh as we have been fighitng against them but now after 18-20 years their injuries may have heeled up to a certain extent

Fourthly as india is bending towards US so russia have to do something to remind india that if they can get it from US thn Pakistan can get it from us

Anyhow these are strategies of countries that vary time to time ,remember every country works in her own benefits

 

[was]

jf17 would have been good if it came out in 90s
it,s not capable of deterr the enemy thats all.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

rightly said mani.

one thing we should accept that Thunder can be good against Indian Mig29's , M2K and LCA but for MKI and MRCA i think we need something good. Now 100 odd F16/FC20 are enough against more than 400 MRCA/SU30mki?? I m abit confuse realy. Hope so PAF has some plans for this.

I highly doubt that JF-17 in its present form will be able to take on the MiG-29 SMT,MiG-29K & M2K-05, These are jets are just too good JF-17

JF-17 in its present form is a cheap replacement for aging fleet with BVR capability