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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

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MK sure JF-17 cant handle SU-30 right now.But it can sure compete with mirages or mig 29s of indian air force?
2)To have tht kind of tech(su-30) countries take years of experience .....we had none......Look at indias LCA since 3 to 4 decades they are trying and putting in billions to make a LIGHT WIEGHT JET.and still havent achieved there goals yet.........FOR WAT?
They have money and surely they can buy anything instead of making a LCA.......
So think again.
Looks like ur high or something.Lol did u have a fight with ur spouse.
Anyways talk maturely.....Ive always been inspired of ur post,but this one is a bumer
 
Hi,

All war planes are developed and designed by air forces directly or indirectly---this plane was developed by chinese industrial complex with pak giving the input what they wanted alongwith their engineers and pilots---so nothing new or big deal about it. Paf is talking like it has re-invented the wheel.

It is the same every where else as well. The nations that build planes have advanced engineering complexes and vast industrial base where private sector is ****** rich or is funded by the govt as well.

These private industrial complexes have serving air force pilots---retd air force pilots---aeronautical engineers---metalurgists---scientists---you name it they got it---they got money---technology---research---manpower that pakistan cannot imagine in its wildest of dreams---so why would the air forces of these nations start building what they don't need to.

In pakistan---WAKE UP YOUNG PAKISTANI---the only major industrial complex with any substantial engineering background and production capability is the pak millitary---take it to the private sector and they got nothing---just a little bit here a tad bit there---nothing of subsatnce---so who do you think would be involved in building the plane.

Pakistan air force is pursuing this plane just for the sake of their ego---once they found out about the J 10---that is what they should gone after---and the J 11---.

JF 17 is a dumb mistake---one of many---.

Pak would be better served with 60-75 J 11's and 200 J 10's alongwith the F 16's.

60-75 plus J 11's will be sufficient to put pak airforce at par with the iaf on its own turf.

Paf desperately needed some heavy weight to go mano a mano against the su30---but they are strutting around with their puny little achievement---fool me once shame on you---fool me twice---shame on me---pak public has been fooled again.

Your fighter interceptors needs to make a power statement---where you needed a steriod filled heavy muscular machine---you are sending in a chicken hawk---.

Pakistan air force needed a PITBULL to face indian air force---all they have been able to come up is a chihuaha.

The sole purpose of the project was to come up with something that the enemy will stop for a moment and think about the consequences---jf 17 does nothing of that kind---if it didnot bring india to the table---then the project is a failure.

Suppose if pakistan had a fleet of 75 J 11's---75 F 16's blk 52's and MLU's and 75 M2K9's---does anyone think that india's power posturing would have been different---.

Please don't talk about paf being the only air force to make their own plane---.

Lollzzz that was a pretty low quality, absurd post from you sir. With whom we are competing with. US Air Force or IAF? If US Air Force then you are correct but if it's IAF then JF-17 is perfect to handle most of Indian machines excluding SU-30. I don't know why but you were looking a bit pissed of. :azn: Anyways I was expecting a better post from you since you are a senior member. We know JF-17's capabilities and it's drawbacks and we also know about our rival. And I believe we are going in the right direction. We aren't going to fight United States Air Force. Do we?
:disagree:
 
JF 17 is a dumb mistake---one of many---.

Dont know about many but one thing is for sure PAF pilots flying JF-17 will definitely disagree with you Big time on this one. Most of the pilots flying JF-17 were the ones flying the F-16s and now after flying JF-17 they do not want to let go this dumb mistake. I suppose there is more to it then just being dumb. Wont you agree?
 
if we upgrade jf-17 with this
Italian Vixen 1000ES AESA
Italian avionics.
WS-13 with 100Kn thrust+TVC
increase hardpoints
increase payload atleast 4.5tons
use of composite materials in airframe
reduced RCS
 
senchez post this on Egypt mulls JF-17 co-production

It's allegedly in the Chinese forum that CAC is working on Egypt specified JF-17/FC-1: new radar with detection of RCS 5m2 plane in 150km and reduction of FC-1 RCS to below 1m2. Egyptian assembly line delivery is said to be 2012.

so if eguption have jf 17 with a radar that has range >= 150Km

than pakistan jf-17's radar will Definately have better range than this

and RCS will also be lowerd to lower than 1m2.
:china::pakistan::china::pakistan::china:
 
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if we upgrade jf-17 with this
Italian Vixen 1000ES AESA
Italian avionics.
WS-13 with 100Kn thrust+TVC
increase hardpoints
increase payload atleast 4.5tons
use of composite materials in airframe
reduced RCS

Avionics upgrade is and will happen but after the induction of the 1st batch. Engine change is another possibility as PAF would want to change RD-93 with a domestic Chinese version. But the other things like increasing the payload and reducing the RCS and the usage of more composite materials might take a while. We can assume these for the block 2 JF-17.
 
Avionics upgrade is and will happen but after the induction of the 1st batch. Engine change is another possibility as PAF would want to change RD-93 with a domestic Chinese version. But the other things like increasing the payload and reducing the RCS and the usage of more composite materials might take a while. We can assume these for the block 2 JF-17.

Yes for the Jf-17 II..
Heard that kamra its own avionics for Jf-17..saw in the PAC site..jf-17 thunder project..
the upgrade i mentioned are for the 2nd block
 
I got just one question...

When everyone talks about upgrading JF-17 or other Pakistani planes to match Indians..Why does no one ever consider that IAF would be upgrading its planes as well.

I mean Su-30 has had its design specs frozen for over a decade now. In another 5-6 years, Su-30 will go for modernization with much better radars, missiles, possibly engines.

The contract for a complete modernization of M2000 to M2005/9 is already being signed i think. Double for MiG 29's.

Why do you assume, that the others will remain static?
 
I got just one question...

When everyone talks about upgrading JF-17 or other Pakistani planes to match Indians..Why does no one ever consider that IAF would be upgrading its planes as well.

I mean Su-30 has had its design specs frozen for over a decade now. In another 5-6 years, Su-30 will go for modernization with much better radars, missiles, possibly engines.

The contract for a complete modernization of M2000 to M2005/9 is already being signed i think. Double for MiG 29's.

Why do you assume, that the others will remain static?

Where did you get the impression that we are assuming others to remain static. This is a JF-17 thread, so it is only logical for us to discuss about it and its future upgrades. PAF is well aware of the future IAF acquisitions and upgrades and it is only logical for PAF to plan an upgrade of its own to counter and maintain minimum deterrence level.
 
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Hi,

All war planes are developed and designed by air forces directly or indirectly---this plane was developed by chinese industrial complex with pak giving the input what they wanted alongwith their engineers and pilots---so nothing new or big deal about it. Paf is talking like it has re-invented the wheel.

It is the same every where else as well. The nations that build planes have advanced engineering complexes and vast industrial base where private sector is ****** rich or is funded by the govt as well.

These private industrial complexes have serving air force pilots---retd air force pilots---aeronautical engineers---metalurgists---scientists---you name it they got it---they got money---technology---research---manpower that pakistan cannot imagine in its wildest of dreams---so why would the air forces of these nations start building what they don't need to.

In pakistan---WAKE UP YOUNG PAKISTANI---the only major industrial complex with any substantial engineering background and production capability is the pak millitary---take it to the private sector and they got nothing---just a little bit here a tad bit there---nothing of subsatnce---so who do you think would be involved in building the plane.

Pakistan air force is pursuing this plane just for the sake of their ego---once they found out about the J 10---that is what they should gone after---and the J 11---.

JF 17 is a dumb mistake---one of many---.

Pak would be better served with 60-75 J 11's and 200 J 10's alongwith the F 16's.

60-75 plus J 11's will be sufficient to put pak airforce at par with the iaf on its own turf.

Paf desperately needed some heavy weight to go mano a mano against the su30---but they are strutting around with their puny little achievement---fool me once shame on you---fool me twice---shame on me---pak public has been fooled again.

Your fighter interceptors needs to make a power statement---where you needed a steriod filled heavy muscular machine---you are sending in a chicken hawk---.

Pakistan air force needed a PITBULL to face indian air force---all they have been able to come up is a chihuaha.

The sole purpose of the project was to come up with something that the enemy will stop for a moment and think about the consequences---jf 17 does nothing of that kind---if it didnot bring india to the table---then the project is a failure.

Suppose if pakistan had a fleet of 75 J 11's---75 F 16's blk 52's and MLU's and 75 M2K9's---does anyone think that india's power posturing would have been different---.

Please don't talk about paf being the only air force to make their own plane---.


I think you take it personally. It was not my intention to make anybody angry at all.
and as far my little knowledge reminds me in current era I cant see any airforce developing or designing aircraft. Air forces normally issue the requirements and 2-3 contenders come up with something and then air force decide witch option to chose and develop further.

and regarding PAF developing an a/c its a fact whether its due lack of infrastructure or any thing else i can do nothing about it, its just a fact.

capabilities of JF-17 that is totally different story. its main puropse was to replace ageing fleet of ours in a most cost effective way.
to force india on table was not the purpose.
If our nuclear arsenal and missile programme did not bring india on table i dont think any thing else in this world can or will bring india on table.

these were my humble thoughts. I didnt mean any harm to anybody. I think we should respect each others tought.
 
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I think you take it personally. It was not my intention to make anybody angry at all.
and as far my little knowledge reminds me in current era I cant see any airforce developing or designing aircraft. Air forces normally issue the requirements and 2-3 contenders come up with something and then air force decide witch option to chose and develop further.

and regarding PAF developing an a/c its a fact whether its due lack of infrastructure or any thing else i can do nothing about it, its just a fact.

capabilities of JF-17 that is totally different story. its main puropse was to replace ageing fleet of ours in a most cost effective way.
to force india on table was not the purpose.
If our nuclear arsenal and missile programme did not bring india on table i dont think any thing else in this world can or will bring india on table.

these were my humble thoughts. I didnt mean any harm to anybody. I think we should respect each others tought.

A good post and worthy of praise.You have countered a senior member with a decent argument and without calling him names which is commendable. Mastan khan has views which are different from ours and sometimes we agree and sometimes we dont.
Thunders uniqueness stems from the Active involvement of the airforce rather thanb pilots alligned to an industrial complex. Even Smaller countries with an aviation industry do not do that. So whetehr he likes it or not, it is unique.
Its purpose is to replace PAFs ageing fleet of 3rd generation fighters which have seen better days and now desperately need to be replaced. It is an economical 4th generation replacement fighter, which unlike our ageing fleet has potential to grow. It may become a bit more expensive as the toys we want get put into it but still cheaper than any western fighter that PAF could have gotten. It is a testament to our poverty that we are still dependant on aid from US inspite of deep mistrust existing between the two goverments and even more so in the Pakistani masses. We are being forced to look at refurbished kit to tool our forces.
As far as I know the debate of heavy vs light fighters pertains to the area that needs to be defended. In EUs case, all the fighters have been designed with the cold war in mind, so UK has typically gone for heavy weight fighters with lower sorty rates but longer loitering time.Sweden on the other hand has devised a smaller plane with initially 7 hardpoints keeping this point in mind. talk to the Typhoon jockeys and the plane they are afriad of is the Gripen. They say it is difficult to see and the link system is the best in the world. During the 65 war we had a hard time against the Gnats again smaller fighters than the Sabres and therefore difficult to find .
Looking at the US it has a combination of single engined and double engined fighters .this is an economical step. F15s have ruled the skies for 50 yrs now.If the heavy fighters were all that one wanted we would never have had the f16s at all. Performance wise we see that f16s have had a venerable record, better than the f15s and F18s. So what does that tell you. The chicken hawk is not so chicken after all!!
With the advent of AWACs in the area, there may still be role for a sole runner like the MKI, but to say that we will all keep mum and stay in bed just because the MKI is out is not true. Longer mission time means more on board tanks and more ammo, but at the end of the day you only need one hit from a missile to account for you. So is mastan sayng that Thunder is so bad that it wont be able to score a hit on an MKI , I dont think so!!!
So this talk of "MKI is the big daddy" is all right on paper but with smaller distances, and a short sortie time, with good radar cover, how good will this big daddy be is something that will need to be seen.
Mastan has given you a list of F16s, M2K9s and J10s. Of those only the f16 is worth having. now. M2K9 is a good plane no doubt but its assembly line is shut and it is maintenance heavy and spares will never be cheap with the french unless you have them by their balls. I think J10 also has yet to mature and I suspect is still not for sale as it is fillling the desperate need for planes in the PLAAF. So where we are now is perhaps the best that we could have done.I think contrary to what mastan writes that we have got our hands on a little gem that needs to be utilized and matured to its full potential. It really will turn out to be a massive hit .
Araz
 
Lollzzz that was a pretty low quality, absurd post from you sir. With whom we are competing with. US Air Force or IAF? If US Air Force then you are correct but if it's IAF then JF-17 is perfect to handle most of Indian machines excluding SU-30. I don't know why but you were looking a bit pissed of. :azn: Anyways I was expecting a better post from you since you are a senior member. We know JF-17's capabilities and it's drawbacks and we also know about our rival. And I believe we are going in the right direction. We aren't going to fight United States Air Force. Do we?
:disagree:

And what are your credentials that you expect better and what standards arew you using to assess his post.Look at the post by Ali Abid. below you. A much more matured answer without calling anyone 's opinion as absurd. mastan is a senior poster and while his views may be different they should be respected as his views.You can counter them, but name calling is not on.
Araz
 
senchez post this on Egypt mulls JF-17 co-production

It's allegedly in the Chinese forum that CAC is working on Egypt specified JF-17/FC-1: new radar with detection of RCS 5m2 plane in 150km and reduction of FC-1 RCS to below 1m2. Egyptian assembly line delivery is said to be 2012.

so if eguption have jf 17 with a radar that has range >= 150Km

than pakistan jf-17's radar will Definately have better range than this

and RCS will also be lowerd to lower than 1m2.
:china::pakistan::china::pakistan::china:

Hataf
Egyptian planes will have the same Radar that PAF has . KLJ7 9s a good radar and has a fairly decent range.
Araz
 
Hi,

Thankyou for the responses---either you disagreed with me or agreed---.

Paf had no choice but to be involved in the project---it was an act by default---because there are no pakistani civilian aeronautical engineers available who are masters in building war birds.

Honda motor company---all upper management is engineers---the CEO of honda will always be an engineer---on the other hand Toyota motor corporation is run by acountants---majority of the upper management will be from accounting and possibly so will be the CEO.

Is one car superior to the other---depends on what you are looking for---both are the products of extremely high quality---honda brags about its engineering ancestory---toyota rules with marketing strategy---it is the end result that counts.

So, in case of end result---will the jf 17 be like the indian Gnat---now you people remember the indian gnat---a low altitude fighter---against the f 86 the high altitude fighter. Now just because the gnat was very visible---that nalogy won't hold true with the jf 17---.

The indian awac would know where it is and so would the su 30's massive radar.

The radar systems of the 21st century are on a different pleateau than what they were. Where the aesa radar can count the blades on the jet engine and tell what kind of engine it is---thus determining what kind of plane it is---guess what---planes flying together showing one on the regular radar will show as two planes on aesa---because aesa knows what engine it is---and which engine is mounted on which radar.

Nuclear weapons and missiles have stopped two sure wars---2002---2008.

But they won't be able to stop the enemy all the time. The enemy will get missile systems that will take out missiles nuclear or conventional---once it believes that it has the fire power to take out those missiles---it is back to square one---air power rules---the su 30 is going to dominate the skies one more time.

It is a numbers game---the problem is that paf is way way behind the eight ball---.

JF 17 just simply doesnot match up---.

Well let me reverse the situation---imagine pakistan owns the SU 30 MKp---p is for pakistan----and india has the LCA but no su 3o mki--- and every indian is bragging that its LCA will take out the su 30mkp and su 3mkp is a piece of sh------wouldn't you be laughing your heads off at the indians.

Please gentlemen---I understand your fervor and nationalism for the motherland----but it doenot mean that one may lose the sense of reasoning.

The typhoon jockeys may say that they are afraid of the grippen---but in the end they know that the typhoon will rule---it is a mind game that they are playing.
 
No doubt F-15 has ruled the skies for the past 34 Years..
 
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