JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 2]

[Zarbe Momin]

In my view we need 4 BVR and 2 WVR instead of 4 WVR and 2 BVR on JF-17. Because in presence of AWACS & SU-30 MKI use of 4 WVR on JF-17 can not bring a much difference. And when it is very necessary to have more WVR then visit the link:
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Saab_JA37_37447_Swedish_Air_Force_Marcel_van_Leeuwen.jpg&filetimestamp=20060301115654

Saab 37 viggen have 2 WVR missels on both side of central fuel tank in picture & this we can also do with JF-17 to adjust 2 WVR missels on both side of central fuel tank.

When Saab AJ - 37 have stations like this then why not JF-17.

http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/img/karlsborg79/37vapenalt.jpg
wasalam

 

[Munir]

Saab 37 viggen have 2 WVR missels on both side of central fuel tank in picture & this we can also do with JF-17 to adjust 2 WVR missels on both side of central fuel tank.

When Saab AJ - 37 have stations like this then why not JF-17.

http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/img/karlsborg79/37vapenalt.jpg
wasalam

Cause the Saab has not the same aerodynamics or space between ground/body etc... It isn;t that simple that you copy parts from other planes.

 

[Zarbe Momin]

Cause the Saab has not the same aerodynamics or space between ground/body etc... It isn;t that simple that you copy parts from other planes.

Yes i agree. But it is a learning process. To see others, what achievements others had made. So we can also attain by readjusting the design in future. If we want change, if we want betterment. If we do not want, then we can just say it is very difficult......! It is not possible.

 

[Luftwaffe]

This is an assessment, a scrutiny, an amateur review and all of the above a look through into all of the discussions going on regarding JF-17 thunder yet sort of amateur in my words cuz i am no a specialist.
To start off with I’ve been hearing and reading alot about J-17 Thunder respectively that future blocks will have this and that above all weirdly amateur comments that there will be a twin tail and twin engine JF-17 is planned. Honestly the purpose of writing this all is to Let those amateur writers commentators as well as members respectively know why things what’ve been talked about most of them doesn’t make sense and are purely are out of Pakistan’s budget therefore and we should contribute to writer and giving our positive rather than negative or imaginative thoughts to a restrictive level. What I’m about to write could be seen by many as imaginative thoughts but it could be taken as near reality than purely fiction.
JF-17 is a multirole light weight combat aircraft that will continue to evolve into potent aircraft to replace our current fleet of F-7s, Mirages III/V and A5s. Thunder will replace all of these old birds in due time by 2018-2020 completely thought a couple of squads of Mirages might remain in service. I do not see 150 of fleet but fairly a larger definite 250 block 1 fleet to replace these old birds. The future is here and its AESA radar whether downgraded version or not Pakistan will get it from Chinese sources for its Thunders complete Fleet of tagged Block 1 for the purpose of understanding. Blocked 1 will replace most probably with a Chinese origin engine with hardly any chances of TVC. With all top notch up Chinese avionics, weaponry and AESA radar Pakistan would bring it well over in category True late 4th Generation aircraft like Gripen NG/F-16 block 60. It is worth noticing that the overall cost of this Jet can increase up to 32 Million dollars for the fact what upgrades it will receive in due course. Fan boys must understand u can’t get a Jet with AESA radar, best avionics and better airframe increase in payload and hard points etc in 20 million dollars think about it! Whatever you guys called it an imagination or close to reality here comes the Thunder complete upgrades, modifications of JF-17 Thunder tagged Block 1 development and procurement of 250 Fleet by 2017 through 2018 finishes off by that time JF-17 Thunder Block 2 prototypes would have almost completed their tests and trials before putting into production by 2018 through 2019.
Understand that Block 2 Thunders will not be a fan boy image Jet of a twin tail twin engine nightmare Jet that would be unaffordable or and nightmare to maintain. No..Before I explain why Pakistan has developed such a plane primarily due to the American sanctions as well as keeping in mind dream plane F-16 Vipers and Gripen in and their amazing capabilities/abilities without any doubt. The Thunder Block 2 is going to be purely by hook or crook based on between F-16 block 52+ and Block 60. It is going to be a redesigned from scratch by 2016 through 2018 we might see prototypes..the complete design and structure with many other changes to its airframe and design might resemble F-16 blk 52-60/EF2000. We could potentially see the size of this warbird to be a little larger than F-16 Block 52 and equal to Block 60 or smaller with mainly more different and composite material used. The tail could be blend mixture or based on F-16/EF2000 design and wings being a little larger than Block 52. Note it that now the conformal fuel tank of F-16 block 50+/52 and block 60 has Impressed Pakistan enough that from DSI on JF-17 thunders will prompt Pakistan once again to install its indigenous made conformal fuel tanks on Block 2 Thunders. Now keep in mind An aircraft based on F-16 Gripen NG with conformal fuel tanks overall size of it between F-16 blk 52 and Blk 60 is a definite possibility and reality than stories of twin tail twin engine Aircraft floating on forums. A bubble canopy more or less like F-16 rather than J-10 can be expected infact such a project will push for best design. As i explain before later Block 2 thunders can be expected to resemble more like F-16/EF2000 than any other Jet allegedly unlike F-35 in fan boy pics. Hard Points up to 12 atleast. It is worth to note that Pakistan Air Force did not push for this project just to replace its old birds and produce up to 150-200 Jets and just keep them upgrading No sir! The purpose was to get into aviation industry was to design develop and build new technologies, upgrade current and design and develop newer variants versions increase fleet for future to be independent of any vendor and seller with no fears of sanctions no fear of technological gap in regards to neighboring country’s building Air Force as well as regional. Block 2 will take time to be put into production and atleast 250 of them might be build i don’t see less than that. That makes 450-500 JF-17 block1 and 2 by 2025. Avionics, weapons systems, AESA radar we do not know what will be on board this Jet but same Chinese engine with TVC can be expected. Based on all inputs from me I would say this is a more feasible project for block 2 JF-17 Thunder and might cost around a little over 42 Million Dollars per piece but worth something to buy rather than buying expensive 60+ million dollars F-16 Block 52+ or Rafale. I am sure PAFs all focus are on Thunder and J-10 and nothing else by 2020 we might start talking about JXX. I would be more than happy to procure Western avionic and weapons suites than procuring the whole western Jets if someone agrees with me or not along with Chinese...
This is all I have in mind at the moment to bring forward not special just been discussed less on forums and I want you members to discuss on this rather on discussing on weird twin tail twin engines and various fan boy pics and stories odd looking PS JF-17 and vice versa. What I explained is more of a reality and should be seen in positive rather than presenting negative comments thought personal option is welcomed I would like to hear from Sir MuradK and Master Khan if there is any possibility or up close reality about this tagged Block 2 JF-17 or could become reality or close to it. Thanks..

 

[spurdozer]

Luftwaffe, I myself always maintained that PAF should prioritise increasing hardpoints on the 17, then increasing the thrust-weight ratio, by using a better engine or by using more amount of composites or both. But there are few points I don't agree


You say by 2018 there might remain some Mirages in service, well in my humble opinion F-7 has chance but Mirages would be too old at that time.

AESA is not a cheap toy that we can equip every 17 with a AESA. As you understand that Block I will eventually size upto 250 aircrafts, there is little chance we will equip each of them with AESA. AWACS is there to support and instruct them. It also depends upon the role of the JF. We might equip some of them with AESA which would be used for deep stike missions.

Another thing as you say if PAF is just working on JF-17 and J-10 with chinese then it is again making a grave mistake. We are putting all our eggs in one basket.

Thanks

 

[Luftwaffe]

It's confirmed after F-16 we're not going to US again in future nor to Swedes British are bend towards Indians left is French would we be able to buy French expensive Jets or Invest in JF-17s/J-10s and bring them on par with at least europeans. I think self reliant, experience and know how is better and doesn't mean putting all eggs in one basket if so swedes are doing the same with Gripen difference we'll have Chinese improved engines and avionics and reliable partner.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Grippen is Capable of operating from simple road bases and dispersed bases with the minimum of maintenance personnel and ground support equipment.

Can we encorporate this Grippen technology in JF-17?

 

[zombie:-)]

Grippen is Capable of operating from simple road bases and dispersed bases with the minimum of maintenance personnel and ground support equipment.

Can we encorporate this Grippen technology in JF-17?

sir there is nothing great in this feature of gripen ...which they flaunt around as a great capability

thing required for road take offs

A) very short take off lenght
B) good raods very close to the airbase and they need to be straight


look at this even large aircraft can take off from good roads

the roar of twin AL-31s is simply jurrasic

 

[jamal18]

Grippen is Capable of operating from simple road bases and dispersed bases with the minimum of maintenance personnel and ground support equipment.

Can we encorporate this Grippen technology in JF-17?

I believe the old f-86 sabres and mig-19's were capable of this.

After Dacca airfield was taken out by the indians there was a plan by the PAF to use a nearby road.

 

[Munir]

Almost any plane can do it and it depends how much length you have... But if you mean a really short distance then I can tell you that JF17 is able to do it. Just check the minimal landing distance...

 

[PAFAce]

Almost any plane can do it and it depends how much length you have... But if you mean a really short distance then I can tell you that JF17 is able to do it. Just check the minimal landing distance...

Correct, Munir. Landing on roadways has got more to do with the road than the plane. Certain sections of the Pakistan Motorway network, as we all know, can serve as alternative landing runways in times of need.

That being said, not all planes are necessarily optimized for this type of landing, mainly because it is an unplanned activity with a very low probability of occurance. Another thing to note is that many modern jets, like the F-22, are designed to take-off and land in remarkably short distances on remarkably destroyed runways, because it helps you maintain your sortie generation rate (SGR) despite taking ground punishment.

 

[mean_bird]

Correct, Munir. Landing on roadways has got more to do with the road than the plane. Certain sections of the Pakistan Motorway network, as we all know, can serve as alternative landing runways in times of need.

That being said, not all planes are necessarily optimized for this type of landing, mainly because it is an unplanned activity with a very low probability of occurance. Another thing to note is that many modern jets, like the F-22, are designed to take-off and land in remarkably short distances on remarkably destroyed runways, because it helps you maintain your sortie generation rate (SGR) despite taking ground punishment.

True!

I believe there is a video of PAF jets landing on the motorway M2. Anyone who has traveled on the M2 will know that there are quite a few straps of straight road and the center dividers are just concrete blocks that can be removed at any instance.

You can even see the documentary video on : : : Pakistan Air Force Official Website: : :

Goto download and click on PAF infrastructure

 

[saiko]

Short take offs and landings are only one part of the equation. You need to bring the maintenance crew, arms, fuel, etc to them. I think the Gripen program actually developed a truck to do just that - mobile maintenance/refueling/rearming station - 1 truck.

 

[Zarbe Momin]

A-O-A,
JF17 need not very short distance for landing. If i am not wrong fighters of 3rd & 4th generation except Sea Harrier, JSF-35, Raptor F-22 takes approximately 400-550 meters for landing. JF-17 comes also in this category. It is Workhorse, so it should be use for this purpose. Some minor changes will come hopefully after production of first batch of 50 Jets. Once ACM Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed said, "we are thinking to increase hard point from 7 to 9". But still we didnt see any good new. If someone konws about this please share.
wasalam

 

[spurdozer]

Once we have a full squadron of JF inducted and running we will soon start hearing the news of new upgrades on the JF.