JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 2]

[Arsalan]

also to add:

April 11/08: Jane’s Defence Weekly reports that:
“Pakistan and China have established a joint marketing organisation to promote international sales of their JF-17 ‘Thunder’ fighter aircraft, the head of the main Pakistani arms export agency has told Jane’s. Major General Muhammad Farooq, director general of Pakistan’s Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO), described the JF-17 in early April as an ideal “choice for countries which are mindful of their finances.”

 

[Arsalan]

The Zimbabwe Air Force reportedly ordered 12 JF-17 2004,[28][29][30][verification needed] but there are no current sources that confirm payment or intent of delivery.
The Azerbaijan Air Force has negotiated with Pakistan for the purchase of 24-26 JF-17s, worth between 16 and 18 million dollars each.[7] The Sudanese Air Force is also reported to be negotiating for 12 aircraft.[31]

 

[Arsalan]

and from IDEAS 2008

Eight countries express interest in JF-17
Saturday, November 29, 2008
By By Azeem Samar
Karachi

Ministry of Defence Production Secretary Shahid Siddiq Tirmizi informed journalists on Friday that as many as eight countries have shown interest in procuring newly launched JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft that was developed jointly by defence industries of Pakistan and China. The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has been using eight JF-17 fighters to complete trials and technical evaluation of the newly launched jet, he said. He said that once agreements for sale were reached, 800 or even more JF-17 fighters could be produced.

The Secretary Defence Production along with Minister for Defence Production Abdul Qayyum Jatoi, State Minister for Defence Production Sardar Salim Hyder Khan, and Director-General Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO) Maj General Muhammad Farooq were speaking at a press conference at fifth and concluding day of International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS-2008) here at Karachi Expo Centre.The official said that through IDEAS, Pakistani defence products were showcased to prospective international buyers, who showed a keen interest in unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), air defence systems, tank simulators, and anti-tank guided missiles developed by Pakistan. He said that the negotiations held at IDEAS could lead to more joint ventures of Pakistan for defence production with international defence industries and friendly countries like Turkey, France, and Germany. According to him, various participating delegations, prospective buyers, and exhibitors had reached some 11 broad understandings for defence production and procuring arms and related equipment.

Tirmizi said that from 2006 to 2008 Pakistan had exported defence products worth $400 million and this figure is bound to increase after IDEAS-2008.

Minister for Defence Production Qayyum Jatoi responded to a question about Pakistani capability to counter drone attacks by saying that Pakistan has the necessary defence capability but its top priority is to resolve the issue through diplomatic and political means. Regarding the strained bilateral ties between India and Pakistan, especially in the immediate aftermath of the Mumbai attacks, the minister said the government is hopeful that India would not attack Pakistan, but Pakistan was capable of countering the attack in such an eventuality.

Maj. Gen. Farooq, organizer of the event, said that prospective international defence manufacturers had already started showing their interest in participating in the sixth IDEAS scheduled to be held in 2010.

Source
http://www.thenews.com.pk/print1.asp?id=149550

i hope this will be useful, superfalcon sir.
thankyou

 

[Arsalan]

It's now December, the end of 2008; what is holding back PAF from making the JF-17s operational ? I wonder if the rate of production at the PAC is still 10-12/year. PAC should go on a warfooting, things don't look good for Pakistan, the vultures have become too dangerous

as quoted from statement of the air cheif marshall, pakistan will be producing 10-15 aircrafts in 2009, 20 in in 2010 and then increasing the number to 25-30 per annum.
these aircrafts will be produced in batches of 50 planes!

as far as increasing the number per annu, is concerned i once asked the seniors here in the forumn to guide us about the assembly line, how many parallel lines are we running and what is there lenght, it will be really kind if anyone can share some information in this regard,

thanks

 

[m15t3r7]

is JF 17 batter the F 16?

 

[Muradk]

is JF 17 batter the F 16?

It depends Jf-17 is still under testing or in other words Turkey is still in the oven, When it comes out than we will know?.

 

[Dhruv]

is JF 17 batter the F 16?

I think a more potent question to ask is, Can it be?

General Dynamics/Lockheed martin with extraordinary research, scientific facilities and outstanding history pitted against chinese catch-up technology. (Lockheed martin's REVENUE for ONE year is more than 28% of whole of Pakistan's nominal GDP)

Airframe makes for very little these days, and avionics with the latest of f-16s shall score EXTREMELY HEAVILY over whatever JF 17 may have to offer. This is just my opinion, and I don't want to hijack your thread here, so please don't take it that way either.

 

[IceCold]

I think a more potent question to ask is, Can it be?

General Dynamics/Lockheed martin with extraordinary research, scientific facilities and outstanding history pitted against chinese catch-up technology. (Lockheed martin's REVENUE for ONE year is more than 28% of whole of Pakistan's nominal GDP)

Airframe makes for very little these days, and avionics with the latest of f-16s shall score EXTREMELY HEAVILY over whatever JF 17 may have to offer. This is just my opinion, and I don't want to hijack your thread here, so please don't take it that way either.

What you are missing here is the pakistani experience with the F-16s and Pakistan's involvement in the JF-17 project which you Indians by the way think is made in china with a pakistani flag on it. In reality its different and yes if the jet was only Made in china, i would have agreed with you as Pakistan till now is not convinced with the J-10 although Pakistan was the first and the only country to be offered, still we went for the F-16s.
I for one have no doubt that when the JF-17 is finally inducted in the PAF if not better it will match the block-52 in terms of its capabilities.
Also do not discount this fact that although we did ordered the F-16s, Pakistan clearly acknowledges the bitter reality about how trust worthy the americans really are and with the treat ever increasing in the SA, do you think PAF will put its future into anything less then the F-16s. Think again.

 

[Pk_Thunder]

What you are missing here is the pakistani experience with the F-16s and Pakistan's involvement in the JF-17 project which you Indians by the way think is made in china with a pakistani flag on it. In reality its different and yes if the jet was only Made in china, i would have agreed with you as Pakistan till now is not convinced with the J-10 although Pakistan was the first and the only country to be offered, still we went for the F-16s.
I for one have no doubt that when the JF-17 is finally inducted in the PAF if not better it will match the block-52 in terms of its capabilities.
Also do not discount this fact that although we did ordered the F-16s, Pakistan clearly acknowledges the bitter reality about how trust worthy the americans really are and with the treat ever increasing in the SA, do you think PAF will put its future into anything less then the F-16s. Think again.

Agreed IceCold sir...IMO the US is not gonna embargo us again as they are well aware of the fact that such step gonna offend both the GOP and the military and they would not be as helpful as are in the WOT currently.Now the situation is quite different from that of the 90's,they need our help too.Also,i have recently read some where in the news channel that the US has invited our ACM in jan2009 for the same purpose.inshALLAH we will have them in 2010.

 

[Dhruv]

What you are missing here is the pakistani experience with the F-16s and Pakistan's involvement in the JF-17 project which you Indians by the way think is made in china with a pakistani flag on it. In reality its different and yes if the jet was only Made in china, i would have agreed with you as Pakistan till now is not convinced with the J-10 although Pakistan was the first and the only country to be offered, still we went for the F-16s.
I for one have no doubt that when the JF-17 is finally inducted in the PAF if not better it will match the block-52 in terms of its capabilities.
Also do not discount this fact that although we did ordered the F-16s, Pakistan clearly acknowledges the bitter reality about how trust worthy the americans really are and with the treat ever increasing in the SA, do you think PAF will put its future into anything less then the F-16s. Think again.

Even if I didn't know this and agree to, that Pakistan's expertise gained on F-16 was instrumental in JF-17s development, IceCold, that in no way explains the two things I mentioned.

1. Extraordinary capabilities of the company behind it, and for decades being on the cutting edge, with seemingly endless amount of money, research and arguably the best brains behind to achieve it. I quoted the REVENUE of one YEAR of the company being almost 1/3 of Pakistans nominal GDP, the extraordinary amount of research available to them already - let us get real, these things are not dented by Pakistan's experience with F-16. While however it can be a good platform for what it may be intended to do, against India, I do not question that.

2. What can be copied, or achieved is probably airframe, engines, thrust to weight ratio and other such flight dynamics. Even that is a commendable job if achieved, and going by what I have inferred till now - probably that has been already. IMO the advanced suit of Avionics newest F-16s are equipped with (I read somewhere about a possible AESA radar, or is it already integrated onboard the falcon now? though even without it... all others including the missile suit) - will literally bring everything down to dust for the thunder when American F-16s are pitted against it.

 

[maximus]

One has to consider that a few decades ago Pakistan was heavily reliant on the West for spare parts, maintenance etc. Sanctions, intimidation and threats were imminent. With such successful JVs that's the past. Also, worth mentioning is that only a handful of countries in the world produce fighter jets. China and Pakistan now belong to that particular club. We all know what the Chinese are capable of and they're catching up lightning fast. It's only a matter of time before China is up there with the rest. In the mean time, China is supplying all the goodies (without any strings attached) that comply with our requirements. What else could we wish for?

The initial batches will consist of Chinese radar (KLJ-7), weaponry and a Russian engine (RD-93). The JF-17 was initially developed to replace the current aging PAF fleet of F-7s, A-5s, Mirage's etc. The JF-17 is cost-effective, attached without strings, easy to maintain/upgrade and possesses the ability to carry ALCM (Ra’ad), BVR missiles (SD-10, MICA etc.) and nuclear warheads. Capabilities which the PAF has sought for quite a while. It provides Pakistan with the advantage of becoming an independent and indigenous producer of fighter jets in the longer run. Moreover, as a result technical know-how in the form of ToT etc. will be another big bonus. It’s a huge leap upwards if we take everything into account.

Basically, the JF-17 will fulfil the role of a front-line workhorse (250 to 300 Thunders). However, as India procures and inducts new fighter jets over the years, Pakistan will also have to counter that threat. That’s why PAF has already shown willingness in further developing the current JF-17 into a more advanced version consisting of different configurations, Blocks etc. Obviously, the JF-17 will become more potent over time as each Block is developed with better and improved specs. By acquiring different sorts of engines (RD-93, WS-13, RD-93B thrust vector, perhaps Western engine), weaponry (SD-10, MICA, A/R-Darter, MAR-1, IRIS-T, AIM-120C etc.), electronic sensor suites and radars (PESA and AESA) from France, China, Italy and perhaps other countries PAF is already diversifying the different batches. By diversifying the batches PAF will curb on cost yet induct different platforms with different capabilities and roles. Plans are in place to acquire a custom-made AESA radar that would truly enhance the capabilities of the JF-17. Additionally, the airframe will in the longer run be modified (composite materials) to achieve a stealthier design, more payload, more speed, longer range etc. Not to mention the A2A refuelling capability that PAF has recently sought which will also contribute in exponentially increasing the operation radius of JF-17. The JF-17 will be data linked with Saab 2000 AEW&C and Chinese AWACS which will also contribute in boosting its radar range.

Anyone that has been following the development of the JF-17 over the years knows that the Thunder has dramatically evolved from a measly lightweight fighter into a capable multi-role fighter. Couple all of the above with J-10, J-XX, F-16 and you’ve got a potent line-up that can challenge any air force in the world.

 

[Arsalan]

I think a more potent question to ask is, Can it be?

yes this is what it is like,,

the JF 17 for sure will be better thatanything Pakistan currently operats, as far as F16z are concerned as they are battle tested systems,

we are operating Block 15 and the technology have been advanced alot since then, the JF 17 will surely be a match of the F16 we are operating even when they are upfraded by MLU and turkish firm.

now all this is right for the first batch, as i had quoted the Air Cheif Marshall statement that the planes will be produced in batches of 50, with option of upgrades in future productions so the second or the third batch may even exceed the F16 block-52

thankyou

 

[Arsalan]

What you are missing here is the pakistani experience with the F-16s and Pakistan's involvement in the JF-17 project which you Indians by the way think is made in china with a pakistani flag on it. In reality its different and yes if the jet was only Made in china, i would have agreed with you as Pakistan till now is not convinced with the J-10 although Pakistan was the first and the only country to be offered, still we went for the F-16s.
I for one have no doubt that when the JF-17 is finally inducted in the PAF if not better it will match the block-52 in terms of its capabilities.
Also do not discount this fact that although we did ordered the F-16s, Pakistan clearly acknowledges the bitter reality about how trust worthy the americans really are and with the treat ever increasing in the SA, do you think PAF will put its future into anything less then the F-16s. Think again.

i totally agree with this sir but the point is do we get them now in time!!

the problem with the J10 for pakistan was the same as you have pointed, as you said do you think PAF will put its future into anything less then the F-16s. Think again very true, that is why paksitan wanted the upgraded version, the super J 10, a system better than the F16 for sure with a better radar, tracking at 150 and engaging 4 targets at a time, beter compataible with the future early warning systems that Pakistan is going for and ofcourse far better manoeuvrebility with thrust vectoring and forward canard wings!

The F16z will be really good, among the best if we can get something as full equipped with complete specs Block52z or something!

thankyou

 

[Arsalan]

sir, anyone please,can't we get F16z from anyother country, i know it sounds a bit stupid but still, with F35 in the market and available for the some countries, can we get there f16. i know what i am saying is quite strange but what is your say on the main point ie Getting the f16 from an alternative source!!

 

[IceCold]

sir, anyone please,can't we get F16z from anyother country, i know it sounds a bit stupid but still, with F35 in the market and available for the some countries, can we get there f16. i know what i am saying is quite strange but what is your say on the main point ie Getting the f16 from an alternative source!!

pakistan will try to get its hands on as many F-16s as we can both from the US and a third party, but do not forget that acquiring from a third source requires the US permission and only if the permission is granted, the F-16s can be sold out to another country in this case Pakistan.