JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 2]

[hj786]

wangrong sir, thank you very much for posting that picture, please don't hesitate to post more if you have time. We appreciate it very much.

So a different engine and radar seem pretty much sure. Whether it will have the rumored twin tails, or other changes is a subject of debate and is currently only rumors or plans which might or might not happen.

Modifications are certainly planned, the ex Air Chief T.M. Ahmad confirmed in interviews. Not rumours. They have been considering whether they will include an AESA radar in the specification of the later batches. I guess that means they have already decided on the specification of the intermediate batches.

I remember in a fairly recent post, pshamim said that they have recently made the decision to modify the next batch with twin vertical stabilisers (twin tail fins). I also recall reading a slightly older post in which he wrote that the first batch would have two extra hardpoints under the fuselage, next to the air intakes. Am I mistaken? Mark do you remember these posts?
I recently read something (I think it was a translation of a Chinese source) in which it was stated that the use of composite materials would be increased to 75%. There is so much info out there that we can only confirm when it actually happens.
On keypublishing forum, a member called redgriffon seems to have a contact inside the PAF, he very recently reported that JF has been tested not just with active BVRAAM, SRAAM, bombs, but even ALCM too!

 

[mean_bird]

Modifications are certainly planned, the ex Air Chief T.M. Ahmad confirmed in interviews. Not rumours. They have been considering whether they will include an AESA radar in the specification of the later batches. I guess that means they have already decided on the specification of the intermediate batches.

Brother, that's exactly what I said...there will be a change in radar/weapons and engine for sure. If you read my post again, I am only referring to the twn-tail version as a rumor.

I remember in a fairly recent post, pshamim said that they have recently made the decision to modify the next batch with twin vertical stabilisers (twin tail fins). I also recall reading a slightly older post in which he wrote that the first batch would have two extra hardpoints under the fuselage, next to the air intakes. Am I mistaken? Mark do you remember these posts?
I recently read something (I think it was a translation of a Chinese source) in which it was stated that the use of composite materials would be increased to 75%. There is so much info out there that we can only confirm when it actually happens.

1. He didn't say the very next batch will have twin tails. He said, future batches 'could' have a twin tail.

But if we are to induct 250 JF-17s by 2015, it seems hard a new version will be designed, tested, and inducted before this timeline unless the twin-seater happens to be the one with twin-tails.

Also note that both the twin seater version and a twin-tail version would require some investment into R&D, prototype and testing. Pakistan does not seem to be in a position to invest in that area at this moment. We know that we are investing in the twin-seater version, so like I said unless this happens to be a twin-tail, I honestly do no see the probability of a twin-tail version anytime soon. In the long run, yes its quite possible.

yet another possibility could be that the twin-tail version had been considered during the initial design and some work on it has already been done, but they decided to come up with the single-tail version first. In which case, the twin-tail version will be more probable, but I still have some doubts.

2. The extra-hardpoints is also definitely on the cards, as the ACM himself mentioned it in an interview to Kamran Khan of Geo TV. I believe I read the same thing about composites though not the 75% you are referring to. Remember, it will increase the cost of the aircraft.

On keypublishing forum, a member called redgriffon seems to have a contact inside the PAF, he very recently reported that JF has been tested not just with active BVRAAM, SRAAM, bombs, but even ALCM too!

Nothing really surprising there....we are the producers of the JF-17 and we are the producers of the ALCM (Ra'ad). And if a Mirage III can fire it, why cant a JF-17.

 

[spurdozer]

wangrong sir. That was a nice pic. Can anyone describe that picture? Why the fuselage of that JF-17 was boarded on a plane? THANKS

 

[mean_bird]

^^ Most probably to deliver it to PAC. The two planes that flew in 2007 were CBUs but the rest came in Knocked-down kits and their assembly , systems integration and flight testing was done at Kamra.

 

[PAFAce]

Thank you mean_bird and hj786 for the information. You guys are always a lot of help.

Just one thing, the F-22 only uses 25% - 35% composites (thermoplastics etc.), and that is an extremely advanced jet. Is it realistic to expect the JF-17 to have 75% composite material? It would definitely help the TWR, but will increase the cost, as mean_bird said. One of the major cost issues with the F-22 (and also our beloved hunk-o-junk LCA) is the use of composites over conventional metals (alimunim, titanium, metal alloys etc).

Also, twin vertical fins is a significant design change. If those are changed, then there is reason to expect changes even in the airframe, not just more hardpoints (may not be likely, but not impossible either).

Lastly, I have a feeling that most of the changes in the next JF-17 design will be "under-the-hood" and not directly to the outside. As you guys have mentioned, newer RADARs, avionics, ECM, weapons control etc. will be the primary focus, because in modern jets, the electrical components are actually the most important ones.

 

[gpit]

Guys I have read that Pshamim of pakdef is saying that there's alot of excitement at PAC coz North Korea have shown interest in buying 200 of our JF-17 birds. Exciting isn't it? But would Uncle Sam allow this deal to go through!!!!

Good question.

Unconfirmed rumor went that China declined NK’s request for J10. Really no one knows for JF17 by considering JF17 is lighter in nature than J10. Yet, Uncle Sam’s pressure can’t be totally ignored by China as NK’s direct enemy is US army in SK.

IMHO, it's pretty hard.

 

[Munir]

The Koreans need the plane badly and frankly it should be delivered without restrictions. We should know by know how it feels to be treated like a paria... If the US delivers war items during Gaza (and we surely know why) then who should be treated different?

 

[PAFAce]

If the US can strike defence deals with India and Israel, we should be able to do the same with North Korea, Iran, Syria etc. However, that is wishful thinking. The US will never allow it. China could provide for them, but will probably choose not to after some risk assessment (at least for now). Russia is the only country that can openly deal with America's enemies without threats from the States, which is why Hillary Clinton was there last week pressing the "reset" button in US-Russian relations (i.e., if you can't beat em, join em). She specifically asked the Russians not to sell to Iran. This is also why NATO recently resumed diplomatic ties with Russia which they severed after Columbia. If US/Europe-Russia relations warm up, Iran, North Korea, China etc. will be most affected. However, Russia will not want to stop dealing with these countries, mainly because for the first time since the collapse of the USSR, Russia is in a position to compete with the US in the international arms market (they posted the highest revenue from arms deals in Russian history last year).

In other words, everyone is looking out for themselves, but the strong can dictate terms. Our reliance on the Americans is our own fault, and is crippling us. We can't make simple decisions on our own, for fear of annoying Uncle Sam, and we are left with making all our trades through China.

Ofcourse, we must consider that even if we were allowed to sell JF-17s, we would not be able to sell them for quite some time because we ourselves need about 250 of them.

The only way to get rid of these issues and become a serious world player is to keep pursuing true self-reliance in every area, not just defence (i.e., less dependance on other nations and development of a stronger infrastructure and economy). Ofcourse, we can start with not fighting amongst ourselves and go from there.

 

[gpit]

Nice picture whts the description of this pic?

I'd like to guess this is an engine arriving from Russia.

 

[gpit]

The Koreans need the plane badly and frankly it should be delivered without restrictions. We should know by know how it feels to be treated like a paria...

In a theoretically free market, yes.

In reality, a Wiseman’s rational logic shouldn’t be overwritten by emotional impulses.

NK has been, and will continue to be, a point of leverage, fortunately or unfortunately based on who views and how to view it.

 

[blain2]

Why would we need to sell anything to North Korea? It would be a bi-lateral deal between China and NK. Pakistan has no need to get involved in this deal.

 

[mean_bird]

It would definitely help the TWR, but will increase the cost, as mean_bird said. One of the major cost issues with the F-22 (and also our beloved hunk-o-junk LCA) is the use of composites over conventional metals (alimunim, titanium, metal alloys etc).

While the actual material used on the F-22 is a secret, F-22's composite material is not the same as used on the LCA or other conventional plane. It may contain carbon composites similar to the one used in conventional plane but its skin is said to be a special kind of di-electric that can absorb radar waves ( by converting them into heat energy). F-22 is not only very expensive, but its also costly from a maintenance point of view.

Lastly, I have a feeling that most of the changes in the next JF-17 design will be "under-the-hood" and not directly to the outside. As you guys have mentioned, newer RADARs, avionics, ECM, weapons control etc. will be the primary focus, because in modern jets, the electrical components are actually the most important ones.

That is quite true. Not only that, even the current batch of JF-17 might undergo upgradation in due time and all of those would be internal changes. The one external change that is likely is the increase in number of hard-points ( and engine + weapons if you like to call it external change).

 

[ejaz007]

China, Pakistan Sign JF-17 Production Agreement; China to Credit Finance Pakistani Fighter Jets
Dated 8/3/2009


Pakistan and China today signed an agreement for the serial production of 42 JF-17 Thunder jet fighters, which are expected to form the backbone of the Pakistani aerial combat fleet in coming years.

Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood, the chief of the Pakistan Air Force, said the first squadron of JF-17s would be inducted into his force this year. Though Pakistan is facing a financial crunch, the serial production of the aircraft is being started with the cooperation of the Chinese government, Mahmood said. Pakistan has invested USD 600 million in the JF-17 project.

The agreement for producing the jets was signed at the PAF headquarters by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Chairman Air Marshal Khalid Chaudhry and M A Zhiping, President of state-run China Aviation Import-Export Corporation.

The ceremony was attended by Mahmood and Chinese Ambassador Luo Zhaohui. Under the agreement, China will provide credit financing for manufacturing the jets. Payments will be made to China in seven years, Mahmood said.

The JF-17 is a lightweight, all-weather, multi-role combat jet developed jointly by Pakistan and China. The Pakistan Air Force has so far received eight JF-17 jets that are being used for testing and evaluation. Mahmood also said that Pakistan would receive its first Airborne Warning and Control System aircraft from China by the end of 2010.

China, Pakistan Sign JF-17 Production Agreement; China to Credit Finance Pakistani Fighter Jets | India Defence

 

[spurdozer]

Munir sir, USA is the only superpower in the world right now therefore ignoring it's pressure would not be easy. And it can't be treated likewise as it treated in Gaza Israel conflict. We have to accept reality that is we are waiting for the Kerry-Luger bill to be passed. We are waiting for American military aid. We are waiting for the diesel bills to be paid by America consumed in the War against Terrorism. We are waiting for American financial aid ( and many other American aids). Our politicians can't even make simple decisions without clearance from Washington. Decisions determining the future of our nation are made in America.Benazir Bhutto made a deal with America to enter Pakistan, Zardari made a deal with America to become president. And that's the bottomline. That's why sir American pressure can't be ignored. We ourselves have created this juggernaut but we certainly can clear this mess up by getting rid of these selfish politicians. We should unite like one by not fighting with eachother. And establishing a strong economy and a strong infrastructure for the state.

 

[spurdozer]

PAFAce I completely agree with you. But from few things which I know I understand that PAF has prioritised increasing hard points in the Thunder.