JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 2]

[adm_havemercy]

i am sorry i might be interrupting the healthy discussion but i just love the jf-17's cockpit . it looks very nice to me . what do you guys say .?

 

[Arsalan]

i am sorry i might be interrupting the healthy discussion but i just love the jf-17's cockpit . it looks very nice to me . what do you guys say .?

yes it seems to be a modren and state of the art model!!

i hope it works to the expectations, Inshallah!!

 

[adm_havemercy]

i support healthy competition . i helps both the sides evolve .

 

[Hasnain2009]

 

[Munir]

I do not think that one tries to be stealth but at the same times still has two wingtip AAM with huge rcs. And somehow the inlet will get turbulent flo when pulling positive G's. A pitot tube is also a nono. Just like some other features.

But then agian. It is lovely to see someone making something nice out of it.

 

[Quwa]

I just wanted to note some of the possibilities I think we will see on JF-17:

1) In terms of ECM/EW, we may see DRFM on the JF-17 as part of the overall kit. Thales has put two systems on the export market, the PAJ-FA and a system on the SPECTRA. Acquiring this system would help JF-17's capability in offensive missions.

2) Regarding weapon-systems, particularly in strike, I have a few interesting ideas. Sagem displayed their AASM missile at IDEAS 2008, likely for use on JF-17. However I don't think PAF will need the system, and would be better off developing its own, perhaps using the Mectron MAR-1 ARM as a basis.

If you compare the AASM and MAR-1 in terms of range relative to launch altitude, you will see that they're quite similar. We will need to change the payload (to a dumb bomb), seeker and guidance systems.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I just wanted to note some of the possibilities I think we will see on JF-17:

1) In terms of ECM/EW, we may see DRFM on the JF-17 as part of the overall kit. Thales has put two systems on the export market, the PAJ-FA and a system on the SPECTRA. Acquiring this system would help JF-17's capability in offensive missions.

2) Regarding weapon-systems, particularly in strike, I have a few interesting ideas. Sagem displayed their AASM missile at IDEAS 2008, likely for use on JF-17. However I don't think PAF will need the system, and would be better off developing its own, perhaps using the Mectron MAR-1 ARM as a basis.

If you compare the AASM and MAR-1 in terms of range relative to launch altitude, you will see that they're quite similar. We will need to change the payload (to a dumb bomb), seeker and guidance systems.

nice... tell us more about number 1... which other aircraft use this?? and also... i am worried that Algeria are getting MLU for their F-1 with "rc-400" as well as similar avionics as JF-17s? shouldn't we conceder RDY radars?

regarding AASM... i dough JF-17 is gonna have another SEAD AGM until block 3 a more advance version is out.. most appropriate choice will be FC-20..

 

[Quwa]

nice... tell us more about number 1... which other aircraft use this?? and also... i am worried that Algeria are getting MLU for their F-1 with "rc-400" as well as similar avionics as JF-17s? shouldn't we conceder RDY radars?

You should read up on ADJ's coverage of IDEAS 2008, it reported that PAF is considering an AESA radar. The French offered PAF a number of systems from Rafale for use on JF-17, such as the Gerfaut HMD/S and Sagem AASM air-to-surface missile. A number of sources also offered AESA radar. Seems the PAF wants new-gen stuff on JF-17, hence the French will probably offer a package based on the systems used by Rafale. So JF-17's ECM/EW kit - including DRFM - may be based on SPECTRA.

regarding AASM... i dough JF-17 is gonna have another SEAD AGM until block 3 a more advance version is out.. most appropriate choice will be FC-20..

I didn't mean new SEAD/ARM, but a regular air-to-surface missile similar to Sagem's AASM, which is similar in role to the Maverick.

 

[mhussain]

You should read up on ADJ's coverage of IDEAS 2008, it reported that PAF is considering an AESA radar. The French offered PAF a number of systems from Rafale for use on JF-17, such as the Gerfaut HMD/S and Sagem AASM air-to-surface missile. A number of sources also offered AESA radar. Seems the PAF wants new-gen stuff on JF-17, hence the French will probably offer a package based on the systems used by Rafale. So JF-17's ECM/EW kit - including DRFM - may be based on SPECTRA.

I didn't mean new SEAD/ARM, but a regular air-to-surface missile similar to Sagem's AASM, which is similar in role to the Maverick.

There is an interesting thread on keypub about how AESA radars are not necessarily the all out superior choice for all roles. There is an argument that a truly modern MSA can outperform an AESA at max angles (crucial for bvr combat) and Eurofighter is seeing this as a reason to wait it out for AESA to mature further. There are also hybrid solutions as in the Russian developments which enable an ESA with MSA. I believe one such option is to have a "swashplate" layout with an AESA/PESA angled, but the system rotating to give better coverage.

I think that the Selex Vixen and the other Selex development along with the Elta AESA are not technologically advanced enough to offer much of an improvement over an advanced PD. Weight, power requirements and costs would really further factor in against an AESA. Having said that: here is what i think should be a good compromise solution:
1. Swashplate (?) with rotating AESA
2. Air-cooled AESA (less powerful but less costly and lower weight) (but we can always be innovative here - air cooling through a little "nostrils" to use the cold air at combat altitudes - just my layman engineering thoughts)
3. For beyond JF-17 - FC-20 could use a hybrid air-water cooled system while the "YF-22" could use a full liquid cooled AESA.

well, those are my thoughts on the AESA..

PS: Mark Sein, are you the same as FaisalK on Pakdef?

 

[Quwa]

Yes I'm FaisalK on PakDef...Mark Sien on PDF...Mark Sien on PD...etc.

 

[Munir]

About cooling and AESA... It consumes lot of space and electricitypower. That does not go with a light fighter. Nose trils to cool ar enice but are adding RCS picture. We need to wait and see it mature. "older" radars heve their certain advantages and do cost a lot less. With many ground/ship/AWACS born AESA we can better interlink or fuse the data and use fighters as fighters...

 

[mhussain]

About cooling and AESA... It consumes lot of space and electricitypower. That does not go with a light fighter. Nose trils to cool ar enice but are adding RCS picture. We need to wait and see it mature. "older" radars heve their certain advantages and do cost a lot less. With many ground/ship/AWACS born AESA we can better interlink or fuse the data and use fighters as fighters...

Thanks Munir, good to see you here! How many forums do you have the time to follow?

Thats a good point about "using fighters as fighters". However, having a mix of JF-17s with some AESA might really be a good idea - keeping the Indians guessing while benefiting from the strong points of both technological developments. I'm surprised you think that my "nostril" suggestion has weight. RCS won't go up if you place it correctly and if you use well-placed indents rather than a direct air-flow point. Of course there is also the question of drag but if the holes are small enough..

 

[fatman17]

Full steam ahead for China's engine designs

China is moving away from its dependence on Russia, according to a new engine design growth chart seen by Jane's. Reuben F Johnson and Robert Hewson report

The design growth chart for engines produced by three of China's main propulsion system centres - Liyang Aero-Engine Corporation (LYAC) in Guizhou, Liming Aero-Engine Manufacturing Corporation (LMAC) in Shenyang and Xi'an Aero-Engine Corporation (XAC) - has been obtained by Jane's.

The chart shows a clear plan for increasing the thrust and performance of China's major military engine designs, as well as confirming the existence of aircraft programmes currently in development.

If the developmental timeline laid out is accurate, Chinese industry is well on its way to weaning itself from its current dependence on Russian industry as a source of engines for its most advanced fighter aircraft. Currently, China depends totally upon Russia for two of its most advanced fighter aircraft that are offered for export.

The indigenously developed Chengdu J-10 fighter is powered by the Salyut AL-31FN: a derivative of the Sukhoi Su-27's Saturn/Lyulka AL-31F. The FC-1/JF-17 fighter is fitted with one Chernyshev RD-93 engine: a variant of the Mikoyan MiG-29's Klimov/Isotov RD-33.

Both aircraft are on track for use by China's major defence export customer, Pakistan. JF-17s are already being assembled at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and the J-10 is also planned for acquisition, being designated FC-20 in service.

The long-term Chinese plan is for the LMAC WS-10A Taihang engine to become the basis for several successively more powerful designs.

The WS-10A will first be introduced into the J-11 multirole fighter - the Chinese licence-assembled version of the Su-27 - and the J-11B, which is the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation's copy of the Su-27.

The first derivative, the WS-10B, augments the thrust of the engine from 13,469 kg (132 kN) to 13,766 kg (135 kN) and it is this variant that is planned to replace the AL-31FN in later production batches of the J-10. A later version of this engine, the WS-10G, has a thrust increase to 15,800 kg (155 kN) and will become not only the standard engine for the J-10 and J-11 but also the power plant for the proposed J-13 combat aircraft.

The J-13 has only been seen in some artists' conceptions and drawings, but it is intended to be the first Chinese-designed carrier-capable twin-engine fighter, designed by the 601 Research Institute at Shenyang.

Several sources state that it will not be a copy of the Russian-made Su-33, the navalised version of the Su-27, but will instead be a much more stealthy aircraft. Several elements necessary for the development of a carrier-capable fighter have been acquired by Chinese industry from both Russia and Ukraine.

Russian sources told Jane's that China purchased the materials associated with the developmental work on the Su-27K - and the single prototype aircraft that was left in Ukraine after the break-up of the former USSR - from the Research Institute for Aeroelastic Systems in Feodosia.

Chinese designers have reportedly already developed some components, such as landing gear configurations that allow for the higher sink rates required for a carrier-capable aircraft. The J-13 is projected to fly sometime around 2013.

Two other notable future aircraft programmes mentioned in this chart are:

- The Xi'an JH-7B, with the plan that this new-generation aircraft will be powered by the LYAC WS-12B growth variant of the original WS-12 Taishan. This engine gives the aircraft a thrust increase to 10,200 kg (100 kN) over the JH-7A strike aircraft's Xi'an WS-9 at 9,400 kg (92 kN). The JH-7B is reported to be a much more stealthy version of the A model that will be used as an escort jammer aircraft for PLAAF Su-27Sk and Su-30MKK aircraft armed with the Zvezda-Strela Kh-31 anti-ship missile, as well as being a platform for the KD-88 air-launched cruise missile.

- The new, modernised version of the Shenyang J-8 fighter, designated the J-8T, which will also receive a new engine. Its 8,160 kg (80 kN) LYAC WS-12 Taishan engine will be replaced by a LMAC WP-14C Kunlun-3 with 8,360 kg (82 kN) thrust. The same engine will also be installed in the Chengdu J-7 fighter and Guizhou (GAIC)/Chengdu JL-9/FTC-2000 jet trainer.

The dates on this chart also indicate considerable developmental and test lead times in these engine programmes.

The WS-10A Taihang supposedly completed its endurance tests in 2005, but the milestone chart for Chinese engine development displayed by China's AVIC consortium at Air Show China 2008 in Zhuhai does not show the engine entering service until 2011.

By the same token, the WS-12B Taishan engine for the JH-7B is supposedly in testing as of this year, but AVIC's timeline does not show this engine as IOC until well after 2020.

Still unknown is which engine design is the "4th Generation Aeroengine" for "the 4th Generation Fighter in Development In China" that was listed on AVIC's projected future programmes chart at Zhuhai. AVIC project this unnamed engine for initial operating capability (IOC) around 2022, which might be the WS-10G or some other higher-thrust derivative.

Two clear conclusions are that China - after many years of trying - is finally building reliable, high-performance military-grade jet engines. It is a considerable achievement with long-term strategic implications, which is perhaps why at the 2006 Zhuhai Air Show the designer of the Taihang engine, Zhang Enhe, was given a Technology Pioneer Laureate award for his "18 years of hardship and difficulties" on developing this engine.

Secondly, these programmes are a further blow to the already significantly declining level of defence exports from Russia to China. Earlier this month the General Director of Rosoboronexport (ROE), Anatoliy Isaikin, told the press that China's portfolio of purchases could soon drop from 40 per cent to 10 per cent of Russia's total export business. One of the few major orders to China still left, he mentioned, was the current contract to supply 100 AL-31FN engines to Chengdu for the next batch of J-10s. If the timeline for the WS-10B is correct this could be the last large-scale order for the AL-31FNs as well.

Reuben F Johnson is a JDW Correspondent based in Beijing and Robert Hewson is the editor of Jane's Air-Launched Weapons, based in London

© 2009 Jane's Information Group

 

[fatman17]

J-F 17 THUNDER

DETAILED SPECIFICATIONS

JF-17 Thunder is a light weight all weather multi-role fighter aircraft jointly developed by China and Pakistan

JF-17 Thunder is the new approved name of the Super-7 (Chao Qi) aircraft. This name depicts true character of the modern aircraft and will surely give a new color to the image it carried earlier

Chinese have named their version of this aircraft as FC-1, which is the first fighter aircraft totally designed and developed in China

FC-1 on entry to PLAAF might carry the J-9 designation

The aircraft has been designed to have high performance at low cost. Surely, this feature would have world-wide attraction. Pakistan would benefit from its sale to other countries

Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (CADI) designed the aircraft and prototyped at Chengdu aircraft Industry Company (CAC), both based in Sichuan Province. CAC is the second-largest fighter production base of China

The aircraft will have an edge over its contemporary aircraft particularly Indian light combat aircraft (LCA) in its cost, early availability and supportability
The aircraft has been developed in record time when airframe development was de-linked from avionics

JF-17 Airframe Design

1. Aerodynamic Configuration

Bifurcated side air inlet.
New wing with ability of high angle of attack
Leading edge maneuvering flap
Trailing edge flap
Tip missiles
Twin Ventral Fin

Aerodynamic Changes in PT-4

2. New Landing Gear

Nose gear with steering
Main gear with paddle controlled hydraulic brakes and automatic anti-skid braking system

3. Comfortable Cockpit and Safe Escape System

Cockpit geometry conforming to US MIL Standard, suitable for 3% to 98% pilot anthropometrics
Single Piece stretch acrylic transparent canopy providing a good all around Field of View
Ejection Seat
Martin Baker high performance ejection seat
Canopy severance system for additional safety
French oxygen regulation system

4. New Environment Control System, providing:

Air supply to control cockpit pressure and temperature
Air supply for cooling Avionics
Air supply to pilot pressure suit
Air supply for windscreen defogging
Oxygen supply duration three hours

5. New Designed Flight Control System

JF-17 has composite flight control system comprising conventional controls with stability augmentation in roll and yaw axis and fly by wire in pitch axis.
Simple autopilot
Control system of lift increasing device, leading edge slats / flap and trailing edge flaps will be an automatic control system referring to air speed and angle of attack for improving aircraft maneuvering

6. New Electrical Power Supply System

Main power supply system will be 115V, 400Hz three phase AC and 27V DC combined system.
Essential power will be provided by a hydraulic driven AC / DC combined generator in case of Main System Failure
Emergency power will be provided by a set of batteries, in the event of engine flameout, for engine restarting, communication and navigation

7. Fuel System

Total internal fuel 5130 lb
Single point pressure refuelling system
External Fuel
One center line drop tank 800 liters
Two under wing drop tanks 800/1100 liters

8. Strength and Fatigue Life

JF-17 airframe is made of semi-monologue structure
High strength steel and Titanium alloy adopted partially at some critical places.
Max speed: 1350 KPH (Mach 1.8)
JF-17 aircraft would be designed, tested and proofed against the requirement tailored for MIL-A-8860 and Chinese National Military Specification GJB67-85
The desired fatigue life of the JF-17 airframe is 4,000 flight hours or 25 years
The period to first overhaul would be 1,200 flight hours

The Avionics Suite

The avionics suite will make the JF-17 as an effective weapon platform. The glass cockpit and hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS) controls will reduce pilot workload.

Accurate navigation and weapon aiming information on the head up display will help the pilot achieve his mission effectively. The multifunction displays will provide information on engine, fuel, hydraulics, electrical, flight control and environmental control system on a need-to-know basis along with basic flight and tactical information. The capability would be built around highly modern state-of-the-art avionics equipment, which is as follows:

Dual redundant two mission computers
Dual redundant 1553 Mux bus architecture
Multimode Pulse Doppler Radar with high power air-cooled transmitter and capable of tracking multiple targets with prioritized firing
Ring laser gyro inertial navigation system tied with GPS
Smart head up display with up front control panel. HUD minimum total Field of View is 25 degrees
Color video recording camera and video recorder (for SMFCDs)
Data Transfer Unit with digital map function
HOTAS
Three smart multi function color displays
Air Data Computer
R/Altimeter
IFF Interrogator/Transponder
ACMI
Standard Armament Interface Unit
Remote Interface Box
BVR Datalink
V / UHF Communication System (Qty 02)
Comm Datalink
All associated antennas
Warnings Computer
ILS
TACAN
RWR
MAWS
CFD

Other essential equipment like
Day/ night laser designator pod
Self Protection Jammer
IRST
FLIR
NVGs
Helmet Mounted Sight/Display

Weapons Capability

The aircraft would be fitted with modern Stores Management System incorporating accurate weapons delivery modes and solutions involving minimum pilot work load
The system would be based on Mil-Std-1760 architecture for all stations including the wingtip stations

The aircraft would be capable of carrying some of the most modern as well as conventional weapons, including:

70-100 Km range beyond visual range active missiles
Highly agile Imaging infra red short range missiles
Air to sea missiles
Anti radiation missiles
Laser guided weapons
Programmable delays cluster bombs
Runway penetration bombs
General purpose bombs
Training bombs
23 mm double barrel gun


@ AMF PAC KAMRA :: ----

 

[mean_bird]

Fatman17

thanks for the post above. Its commendable that you provided this detail for forumers here to see. However, and please do not get me wrong, I think it would have been a better idea to either rephrase stuff in your own words or provide a link to the page. This is the material from the manufacturers website and copy pasting the whole page amounts to serious breach of copyright IMO.

Again, please do not get me wrong. It certainly would help forumers here learn a lot but IMO you should have just selected the key points and provided the link for the page. That way, we can have all the information and also respect the copyright from from a moral and legal viewpoint.

Please do consider this.

Below are the two pages for reference, for those who wish to see the details as well as diagrams
1. JF-17
2. JF-17 specification details