JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 2]

[Rafael]

I want something like Sukhoi30MKI.

well I have ordered them recently my friend...just for you.....they should reach within a day or two..


Dude...do u have cash???

 

[Owais]

First of all I want to say that we need to be more tolerant about critics. Constant procedure of self assessment will definitely improve us there is no harm in doing it.
Now let’s talk about JF 17 Thunder:
It is made of Aluminium alloy instead of composite material to keep cost down. It is also not very small jet[Dimensions: length 14.97 m (49 ft 1 1/2 in); height 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in); wing span 9.46 m (31 ft 1/2 in)]. Which means Advanced fighter jet like Sukhoi 30MKI (Radar Range of 350km) will see it from 300 km. Which will make it difficult to strike more than 500km inside Indian territory or long range naval missions. It has maximum speed of 1.6 Mach which is very slow compare to any other 4.5 gen fighter jets. It has got one 49.4 kN (11,103 lb st) dry or 84.4 kN (18,969 lb st) with afterburner Klimov RD-93 turbofan or equivalent co-produced WS-13 turbofan. Which gives it Thrust to weight ratio of 0.95 (Thrust/Weight = 0.95) Which is less than one. Which means it won’t fly in upward direction (vertically) like Tejas or Sukhoi 30 MKI. It has not got Thrust Vectoring capacities which make it less maneuverable and it will be difficult to dodge missiles. It has gLimit of +8.5 which is less comparing to Tejas or Sukhoi 30 MKI or any of 6 MRCA India is going to buy. It has combat radius of 1,352 km we need more than that if we want to strike Mumbai or Pune or Banguluru or Kolkottaa or Meddrass. It has got KLJ-7 Radar. The detecting range for a typical air target of RCS 3 square meter is > 75 km; look-down-shoot-down range is > 45 km; range for sea target is > 135 km. Do you think you can send Fighter with range of 75km inside Indian territory when they have Sukhoi 30MKI or Mig 29 or Tejas or Miraj 2000 or (one of 6 jest bidding for MRCA competition).
After all research I have done on JF 17 and other jest sometime I feel like Mig 21 Bison looks batter than jf 17 Thunder on Paper.


I really dont want JF 17 Thunder. Give me something to believe it is batter comparing to Sukhoi 30MKI or Tejas.

After reading all blogs in this topic I still we should go for Batter plane. Instead of buying 300 we can buy 150 but we need something batter than this. We can recover invested money by selling this planes to African countries or other buyers. But like Chinese Air force we don't want to buy them.

yar Tejas is still in testing phase. I advise you to do some research on LCA and then you will find deficiencies and limitations in its airframe and its so called small size which leads to delay in project. also, dont forget that JF17 will be produced in 3 phases. after getting 54 of them, we will be having french radar with western engine for it. you are right that RD93 is not better for JF17 but its airframe allows a lot of room for improvements (in radar as well as engine). also, why are you crying soo much about its radar?? we are not getting AWACs to put them in showroom
believe me! JF17 can do much better role as an ADF even against MKI when backed by an AWAC. currently it is not configured for offensive role. we will be having F16 and FC20 for offense.
and how can you feel that MIG21Bis is better than thunder?? can you justify that how a 60's design can match with that of 90's?? even our F7PG have better airframe than MIg21 Bis (well known as flying coffin).

 

[Luftwaffe]

Bro asifs047 U don't know what P.A.F knows and What P.A.F knows nobody knows...if JF-17 is a trash project than why did not Pakistan join China with a cheapest F-7MF project which was a larger aircraft then JF-17 we could have received 100s of them each costing half the price of JF-17 and put french in it?? like what was a big deal or difference after all it was a redesigned alloy air frame by the way bro did u ask the manufacturers of JF-17 if its alloy or will be alloy in future??did u visit CAC/PAC??

 

[All-Green]

Sorry I did not mean to say Mig 21 Bison is batter than JF 17. It was just expression of speech.

JF-17 is our future in terms of light weight, cost effective, highly upgradeable platform.

Our Air force is really focusing on bang for buck and in the development for JF-17 we shall get a lot more benefits in terms of enhancement of our aviation industry.

With the likely introduction of composites/RAM, superior western or newer Chinese avionics/weapons, more powerful engine, integration with AEW&C platform, mid air refueling etc. the performance of JF-17 will be much more superior in the price range than anything else we can afford. Our design priority and philosophy was to have a maneuverable and flexible platform and that means many upgrades shall be carried out.

Even now the performance stats are indicative at best and not precise since we are in the process of improvements and enhancements.
Its light maintenance and ability to take off from roads/small temporary runways would ensure that in case of War this aircraft will be a key asset for PAF.

In combat there is such a thing as tactics and strategy, a sound strategy entails that the assets at a commanders disposal are used optimally to ensure that they are given ample opportunity to take advantage of their strengths against the enemy's weaknesses.
Every aircraft has a role and its relevant strengths and weaknesses which can be exploited in combat by the opponents.
For example a heavy 2 engine aircraft which is heavy on maintenance and needs a lot more ground crew and support equipment will therefore be quite difficult/expensive to keep operational when compared to a light single engine aircraft.
Light aircraft, medium aircraft and heavy aircraft have different requirements which need to be taken into consideration by the strategists before induction.

My advice is to stop comparing JF-17 to SU-30 at this stage.
While some aircraft are outstanding in their own rights, it does not imply that they cannot be countered effectively.

Acquisition of JF-17 is an excellent step and a proud moment for us.
So take it easy and stop with the pessimism already!

 

[Arsalan]

after reading the post by asif0463 and going through all the replies he got from other fellows i would like to add something,

first of all dear as said by All-Green we cannot compare JF17 with Su30, it is for the Su's that we are going for FC20 and all that F16 stuff including the MLU and Block52 procurement.

secondly the aircraft is basicall meant to be an export market oriented aircraft, this means it have huge options of upgrade, so we do not know how the future blocks comez, it may be something different, for example you cannot compare an F16 bloc 10 with F16 block 60, the same is the case here, JF17 have huge upgradation potential and once the project starts to generate money by exports we can effectively introduce new technologies to it.

as far as the radar is concerned, we will be watching a new one in next batches of the plane and secondly it do not matters much in presence of support by the AWACS as mentioned by Owais

it have the ability to fire the deadly SD10, supported by AWACS and Mid Air Refuling it will provide us with enough power to defend our skies. further more you should not forget that JF17 will not be all on its own, it will have the support of high tech FC10 and F16z

i hope all my fellow members agree with me.

 

[mean_bird]

JF-17 Thunder is not fast it's speed is only 1.8 Mach, Thrust/weight ratio is only 0.95 (Which is less than one and not good), It is made of aluminium alloy, Radar range is only 140 km. It hasn't even got thrust vectoring.
Even HAL Tejas looks batter with Composite body, Thrust/weight ratio of 1.03, batter radar, batter g-Limits and small size.

Why do you think that we are buying it in Large numbers?

1. Neither the J-10 nor the F-16 has got Thrust vectoring, so what's the point?

2. Tejas are on paper for the last 23 years...ever wonder why the IAF hasn't ordered them in large quantity? Also them have limited range compared to JF-17. In any case, by the time Tejas enter service (if they ever do) they would be competing with JF-17 blkII.

3. Why are buying them in large numbers? because we want to replace our large fleet of A-5s, Mirage III and V and F-7s and JF-17 is far more capable than either of them. According to ACM, its better than our existing fleet of F-16s.

It is made of Aluminium alloy instead of composite material to keep cost down....Which means Advanced fighter jet like Sukhoi 30MKI (Radar Range of 350km) will see it from 300 km. Which will make it difficult to strike more than 500km inside Indian territory or long range naval missions. It has maximum speed of 1.6 Mach which is very slow compare to any other 4.5 gen fighter jets. ....t has combat radius of 1,352 km we need more than that if we want to strike Mumbai or Pune or Banguluru or Kolkottaa or Meddrass. It has got KLJ-7 Radar. The detecting range for a typical air target of RCS 3 square meter is > 75 km; look-down-shoot-down range is > 45 km; range for sea target is > 135 km. Do you think you can send Fighter with range of 75km inside Indian territory when they have Sukhoi 30MKI or Mig 29 or Tejas or Miraj 2000 or (one of 6 jest bidding for MRCA competition).
...

I really dont want JF 17 Thunder. Give me something to believe it is batter comparing to Sukhoi 30MKI or Tejas.

...
We can recover invested money by selling this planes to African countries or other buyers. But like Chinese Air force we don't want to buy them.

4. Its made of Aluminium alloys currently but we will be gradually adding more and more composites.

5. SU-30 can only track targets at 200km. Also the DSI (which gives some stealth) will make the JF-17 less visible to the SU-30. But then again, JF-17s are not a match to the SU-30s and were never intended to be so.

Also for JF-17s radar, the detection range for a typical air target of RC 3 m² is 125+ km; looking downrange is 45+ km; range for sea target is 250+ km.
JF-17 Thunder (FC-1 Fierce Dragon) Multirole Fighter | AVIATION FANS

Also remember the AWACs are there for a good reason. Pakistan airforce's primary role is defensive so the AWACs are always available. For offensive role and deep strike, we rely on our missile deterrent and not the airforce.

6. You're contradicting your own statement by first claiming it's speed is mach 1.8 and now saying mach 1.6. With a better engine and more composites, the second batch (after the first 50) will improve both the Thrust/weight ration and the speed.

7. A combat radius of >1300km is quite decent. We have our missiles to supplement very far strikes.

8. You need to clear yourself of the difference between Tejas and the SU-30s because they aren't really a match. The SU-30 is quite an advanced aircraft. The JF-17 is quite good for the Tejas even at the current configuration.

I want something like Sukhoi30MKI.

Get us someone ready to sell us such a plane and the money needed to buy it.

For more information about why Pakistan is buying combination of Hi-low J-10/F-16 and JF-17s , read the first few posts of the following thread.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/19930-paf-shouldve-invested-more-j-10s.html

 

[MastanKhan]

Asifs0463,

Hello---your response is still a paste and post kind of reply---you have to bring out the operational, strategic and tactical issues---what the purpose of the jf 17 is, why does the paf need or does not need that plane---basically what is the doctrine behind the procurement of that plane---is it designed to do a mano a mano on a su 30---or is it designed for some other tasks

You have just taken up some stats from this web page or that web page and put them together in a jumble.

It is fine to be a critic----but in order to be a critic----you have to prove yourself by posting your own thoughts and research on this board-----remember we are a DEFENCE .PK board.

Just because you come in a swinging----your 2 and 3 line posts which hardly number 10 or less in total, so far---does not get you too far.

Maybe---you need to read the heading of this web-site again----search and read the material by other posters----and see if your input is worth a penny or does it have the quality to be posted on this board. So far---it has been a waste of your time whatever it is( actually it won't take much time to post a couple of 2 or 3 liners ).

Now----my job is not to be disrespectful or insulting to any member---but when you come to a new place and just start winging it without any thought and reason, I believe that it is my duty on behalf of senior members and members who invest their QUALITY time on this board to get better input from posters. Thankyou.

Maybe I should talk to the WEBMASTER and we can have a minimum criteria / manner police taking control of this web-site.

 

[paritosh]

yar Tejas is still in testing phase. I advise you to do some research on LCA and then you will find deficiencies and limitations in its airframe and its so called small size which leads to delay in project. also, dont forget that JF17 will be produced in 3 phases. after getting 54 of them, we will be having french radar with western engine for it. you are right that RD93 is not better for JF17 but its airframe allows a lot of room for improvements (in radar as well as engine). also, why are you crying soo much about its radar?? we are not getting AWACs to put them in showroom
believe me! JF17 can do much better role as an ADF even against MKI when backed by an AWAC. currently it is not configured for offensive role. we will be having F16 and FC20 for offense.
and how can you feel that MIG21Bis is better than thunder?? can you justify that how a 60's design can match with that of 90's?? even our F7PG have better airframe than MIg21 Bis (well known as flying coffin).

mif-21 Bis is different from the Bison...it is apparently very good.
i am not informed on it's one-on-on with the thunder...but bison sure is potent and after the red flag has got many fans.the 60s air-frame you talk about is a proven one....i think the limitation you are pointing to is the limited weapon pods...it has been dealt with.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Mig 21 BIS is not the 'flying coffin'. Those are the other mig 21's. The BIS upgrade is technically a very sophisticated upgrade for a MIG 21---it really does take it out of its league ie the regular indian migs.

We need to understand what the flying coffins are and why they are what they are----these are the older migs---which have been refurbished with parts bought from black market---or produced in eastern block russian countries. Those parts do not have the stamp of approval from the MIG bureau.

Another thing is that mig 21, because of its inherent design has a comparatively higher landing speed than most other planes. So the pilots being switched over to migs had to be trained on K 8 type of a trainer----which IAF is taking care of now.

MIG 21 has always been considered an extremely deadly close combat aircraft in the hand of the right pilot and specially with the BIS upgrade it has become an extremely potent machine. This upgrade may have taken the dog fight capability of this aircraft due to the extra weight added on by the equipment----but then it has achieved BVR which adds a considerable punch to the machine. ( the dog fight capability means that due to its extra weight, it is not as maneuverable as it before.

The threat that the mig 21 Bis poses---should not be taken lightly. Only fools take their enemies to be incompetent.

 

[ejaz007]

Just came across this website: FighterJetZ.com - Pictures of the World's Air Forces

This website did not have JF-17 picture so I have uploaded a picture of JF-17 from defence.pk. Hope Webmaster did not mind it.

Regards,

 

[Quwa]

If MiG-21 bis is to be taken as a credible threat, then the same applies to the F-7PG. It is still a new airframe and there is no doubt that PAF is considering some extensive upgrades where possible. I would not be surprised if Pakistan's direct equivalent to MiG-21 bis turns out to be an upg F-7PG.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I think F-7PG should be given an upgrade in the league of BISON to be used as stopgaps untill JF-17 are inducted in numbers and that with western systems. i am not sure F-7PG can carry BVR missiles, but 2 SD-10 with a chinese jammer pod will i think solve our BVR missile problem over night. though next year we should have 18+ F-16 MLU and 18 JF-17s which will be capabel of BVR AAM but still not enough to counter IAF BVR AAM fleet.

 

[Rafael]

guys, I have a question....a silly one though

what about our pilots? are they excited about JF-17?? how much?

someone with PAF Sources?

 

[Arsalan]

sorry for being off the topic

kindly do visit:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/20716-surface-air-missile.html#post286665

and share you knowledge

thankyou for your co-operation

 

[hj786]

Surely it is much cheaper to use JF-17s as BVR cover for the F-7PG, rather than equip the PG with BVR armament, these kinds upgrades are costly and take a lot of time and effort and the end result is not much of an improvement.

I have read somewhere that the Bangladshi F-7BG has the same RWR suite as F-7PG, but also has onboard Chinese jammers too. This must surely mean F-7PG has the same onboard jammers as well, so it has some defence against BVR missile attacks anyway. Anybody have information on this?