JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 1]

[Officer of Engineers]

Why would PLAAF hate JF-17?

It's a dead end project. Expansion is too limited. And it is a step backwards for them.

As far as i know Pakistani JF-17 will be far more advanced than anything China will have in the category.

Only because it is newer than their current production lines. Of course it is more advance in terms of avionics but not air frame design.

FC-1 (Chinese configuration) can of course be third rated in terms of the west, but it suits their needs, and perfectly meets their requirements.

I need to know what is NOT meeting the PLAAF requirements. Fighter planes dont work like tanks.

The Chinese needs to meet the F-22 spec ASAP. The FC-1 is chewing up way too much commitment away from the J-XX. In fact, before the J-10 came on line, there was strong talk of even bypassing that plane and wait for the J-XX. The FC-1 no matter how you look at it only delays the J-XX and it certainly is not a F-22 competitor.

 

[EagleEyes]

It's a dead end project. Expansion is too limited. And it is a step backwards for them.

Where they are currently at, J-10s expansion too is limited.

Only because it is newer than their current production lines. Of course it is more advance in terms of avionics but not air frame design.

The air frame has improved quite a lot, and perfectly suits the type of the plane.

The Chinese needs to meet the F-22 spec ASAP. The FC-1 is chewing up way too much commitment away from the J-XX. In fact, before the J-10 came on line, there was strong talk of even bypassing that plane and wait for the J-XX. The FC-1 no matter how you look at it only delays the J-XX and it certainly is not a F-22 competitor.

J-XX is too far to chew up any commitment. There are roughly 1000+ J-7s, J-8s, and couple more Q-5/A-5 to be replaced. J-10 is too expensive for them to replace. China needs quantity in air force, they will not survive without it. I expect at least 400-500 FC-1s in the PLAAF realisticly speaking.

 

[ejaz007]

I think PLAAF shall ultimately induct JF-17’s in its fleet. The reasons are that it is better than J-7’s, Q-5’s and perhaps in some aspects even J-8. PLAAF’s JXX is still a long distance away from becoming a reality and J-10’s are expensive compared to JF-17’s. It might not be possible to replace all J-7’s with J-10’s but a mix up of J-10’s and JF-17’s shall be an ideal solution.

Further by inducting JF-17’s in PLAAF its unit cost shall go down and it shall be ideal replacement fighter for airforces with limited budgets. Even though China’s share in its development was 50% and as indicated around USD 250 million it would not be bad if this fighter generated revenue for them.

Although China has made good progress in military aviation technology still it shall have to master a number of technologies to create a stealth fighter or a fighter of the capability of F-22.

Therefore it is quite possible that PLAAF shall induct JF-17’s in its fleet.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Where they are currently at, J-10s expansion too is limited.

Nope, it's a bigger plane.

The air frame has improved quite a lot, and perfectly suits the type of the plane.

Nope, it's still a small airframe.

J-XX is too far to chew up any commitment.

No, it's not. Any plane you buy today will have to last you 30 years, mid life upgrade included. The J-XX MUST NOT be more than 10-15 years away.

There are roughly 1000+ J-7s, J-8s, and couple more Q-5/A-5 to be replaced. J-10 is too expensive for them to replace.

2nd best is always more expensive. And it's never a 1 to 1 replacement. Oh, take the J-8 off your list. The FC-1 don't have the legs nor the height to the J-8's job.

China needs quantity in air force, they will not survive without it.

Why?

I expect at least 400-500 FC-1s in the PLAAF realisticly speaking.

I don't expect more than 150 simply because the PLAAF is aiming for a smaller, more effective force.

 

[IceCold]

Why would inducting JF's be a step back? If one currently studies the JF's it has plenty of room for improvement and that is planned too as well. Secondly if PLAAF doesnt want to induct this jet, then they wouldnt under any political reasons or so. They have bared the half cost of the project, they dont need to do anything more if they dont want to induct this plane in the inventory. And no way in hell is the JF comparable to j-6,j-7, its far more advance. And the weapon load capability is not an issue since the future upgrade of JFs may also include more payload, either by adding composite materials or an engine with more thrust. I think that the engine with more thrust is all ready being developed. RD-93b has more thrust and so is the WS-13 as compared to the original RD-93.

 

[su-47]

Inducting JF-17 will increase logistical pressure on china. Also, it wont add to their capabilities. They are much better off inducting high end aircraft like the Su-30 MKK in larger numbers

 

[PakSniper]

Inducting JF-17 will increase logistical pressure on china. Also, it wont add to their capabilities. They are much better off inducting high end aircraft like the Su-30 MKK in larger numbers

How in hell will it create logistical pressure on a mid-level plane from J-10, dude stop coming out with these stupid mediocre terms you have no clue about. Wouldn't high-tech planes create logistical problems if their components stopped functioning and the replacement time, where JF-17 components will be a step down, etc.

OOE and other experts, it's pretty amazing you degrading the plane, without knowing fully what China might be doing in the future, they have fooled us in the past, etc, and who knows what might happen in the future.

Who would have thought F-86 saber when first inducted was thought of as not competitive as their Russian counter-parts but their designing and advancements made up for their lack for speed, etc, which later matched their Russian counter parts. Alas, remember the plane is still going in different phases of testing, even PAF has not fully inducted it in their force yet. Don't be to quick to judge!

The PLAAF will commit this bird to its inventory. If the PLA is willing to sacrifice 30,000 men to teach a lesson, then the induction of a less worthy bird in support of an ally is a no brainer. The PLAAF may hate this bird with a passion but to keep Pakistan fully armed and determined is worth far more than the 150 birds the PLAAF is committed to buy.

Interesting and you must be sitting inside PLAAF HQ to know they hate this bird with a passion?

 

[PakSniper]

It's a dead end project. Expansion is too limited. And it is a step backwards for them.

Only because it is newer than their current production lines. Of course it is more advance in terms of avionics but not air frame design.

The Chinese needs to meet the F-22 spec ASAP. The FC-1 is chewing up way too much commitment away from the J-XX. In fact, before the J-10 came on line, there was strong talk of even bypassing that plane and wait for the J-XX. The FC-1 no matter how you look at it only delays the J-XX and it certainly is not a F-22 competitor.

Interesting analysis, considering Chinese been having problems with developing their own engine, without Russian help, and you think JF-17 is chewing their up their time, good god, I wonder would you have thought F-16 as a dead end fighter as well? Or "NO" since it was American, etc, dude think a little bit more, Chinese are still at their J-XX project, we haven't heard of any time being wasted from leaked or Chinese sources itself. Alas, you have to remember even with embargo's China was progressing slowly, and it still will be considering US is taking China as a threat and will do what it can to slow down their progress. Hell, China was caught giving money to an Indian who designed engines for Stealth planes, it' shows where China itself is in terms of technological advancement. Also, their is no way in hell China even with J-XX out in a few years will be able to match the F-22, same goes for the Russians, both of them are far to behind.

 

[su-47]

How in hell will it create logistical pressure on a mid-level plane from J-10, dude stop coming out with these stupid mediocre terms you have no clue about. Wouldn't high-tech planes create logistical problems if their components stopped functioning and the replacement time, where JF-17 components will be a step down, etc.

Logistical problems can be caused when there are too many different types of aircraft in an air force, even if those aircraft are not high-tech. Chinese already have MKK, so it wont add to logistics much by getting more. But to add a new type of aircraft will

 

[Titanium]

Can we stop feeding the doubters, coz they are not here to be convinced. PLAAF is not about shouting from rootopof what they do and don't do. If someon want to be happy about what he belives, leave him ...in his wonder land.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Why would inducting JF's be a step back?

How many times do I have to say this - SMALL AIR FRAME!

If one currently studies the JF's it has plenty of room for improvement and that is planned too as well.

Avionics and electronics ONLY. A small airframe is still a small airframe no matter how you look at it.

Secondly if PLAAF doesnt want to induct this jet, then they wouldnt under any political reasons or so. They have bared the half cost of the project, they dont need to do anything more if they dont want to induct this plane in the inventory.

The PLAAF don't have a choice. It's the CCP who are forcing this down their throats. Again, if the PLA is willing to lose 30,000 men to teach Vietnam a lesson and willing to suffer over 100,000 to teach Taiwan another lesson, what makes you think they won't sacrifice money to keep Pakistan happy?

And no way in hell is the JF comparable to j-6,j-7, its far more advance. And the weapon load capability is not an issue since the future upgrade of JFs may also include more payload, either by adding composite materials or an engine with more thrust. I think that the engine with more thrust is all ready being developed. RD-93b has more thrust and so is the WS-13 as compared to the original RD-93.

It's a MiG-29/21/F-5 class no matter how you look at it. It's a point-defence fighter no matter how you want to classify it and the Chinese don't need a point-defence bird anymore.

And lastly, I'm not the one doing the judging on this bird. That press is coming out from the PLAAF and in fact, they do shout from their roof tops. The PLA is not above demonstrating their dislike of policies from an idiotic general who shouts about nuking the US in a Taiwan war to their own officers giving their personal opinions about their Chengdu or Nangyang products at trade shows. Colonels Ken Allen and Denis Blasko (both former US Defence Attaches to Beijing and with personal contacts in China) has more than reported PLA dis-sastisfaction with CCP policies. Dr Richard Fisher (as much as I detest his conclusions but his raw intel cannot be faulted) has shaken more than a few hands at Trade Shows in China.

So before any of you jump up and down screaming about the virtures of the FC-1, the PLAAF has done more than leaked their hatre for this bird. Live with it.

 

[Titanium]

How many times do I have to say this - SMALL AIR FRAME!

Small Airframe is by design and choice, not that they wished for a large plane and out came a small airframe

Avionics and electronics ONLY. A small airframe is still a small airframe no matter how you look at

it.

F-16 from A TO D/E/F whatever is only AVIONICS, MIRAGE 2000 to 2000-5 and 2000-9 Avionics onlee, F-15 upgrade Avionics onlee

The PLAAF don't have a choice. It's the CCP who are forcing this down their throats.

I want Raptor but goverment is forcing Migs down my throat. I want Nuclear carrier but Govermnmet is forcing patrol boat down my throat.


The point is, Governmet decides what they can afford and what threat they percive, even if I agree to the oft repeated rumour... which has now taken the life of truth.

It's a MiG-29/21/F-5 class no matter how you look at it. It's a point-defence fighter no matter how you want to classify it and the Chinese don't need a point-defence bird anymore.

Agreed about its class, no one argue, but do not peddle
Chinese don't need a point-defence bird anymore, by becoming arm chair general. If Chinese mean government , then they do need or PLAAF then read above.

And lastly, I'm not the one doing the judging on this bird.

Do the favor and stick to it.

 

[Officer of Engineers]

Small Airframe is by design and choice, not that they wished for a large plane and out came a small airframe
it.

And who chosed it? Not the PLAAF.

F-16 from A TO D/E/F whatever is only AVIONICS, MIRAGE 2000 to 2000-5 and 2000-9 Avionics onlee, F-15 upgrade Avionics onlee

No. The ugrade was also done to the airframe in those birds. I've got two F-15 engineers on WAB who are more than willing to give you a history of what they did.

2ndly, how many used F-16s are on the market? How many used F-15s?

I want Raptor but goverment is forcing Migs down my throat. I want Nuclear carrier but Govermnmet is forcing patrol boat down my throat.

The point is, Governmet decides what they can afford and what threat they percive, even if I agree to the oft repeated rumour... which has now taken the life of truth.

What's your point here? Are you a PLA watcher? I am. Am I the only citing the PLAAF dissastisfaction? I'm not. I've given you three other observers who seen the same thing. Are PLAAF officers telling us point blank that they hate this bird? Yes, they are. So kindly take your cynicism elsewhere. It does not change one single iota that I am not the one saying the PLAAF hates this bird. The PLAAF is the one doing it.

Agreed about its class, no one argue, but do not peddle
Chinese don't need a point-defence bird anymore, by becoming arm chair general. If Chinese mean government , then they do need or PLAAF then read above.

I have combat experience, so don't call me an arm chair general and 2ndly, again, it's the PLAAF who are saying it whether you like it or not.

Do the favor and stick to it.

Why don't you get off your high horse and check the sources I've cited. You're the one doing the judging on my reporting of the facts. At the very least, check my sources.

 

[Titanium]

No. The ugrade was also done to the airframe in those birds. I've got two F-15 engineers on WAB who are more than willing to give you a history of what they did.

2ndly, how many used F-16s are on the market? How many used F-15s?

First calm down, no one is being personal with you. Conformal tanks and structural upgrade does not constitute Upgrade in the sense of Upgrade of Hornet to Super hornet.

F-16 and Mirage Upgrade are mostly Avionics onlee and I donn't understand the used f-16 mention in the context.

What's your point here? Are you a PLA watcher? I am. Am I the only citing the PLAAF dissastisfaction? I'm not. I've given you three other observers who seen the same thing. Are PLAAF officers telling us point blank that they hate this bird? Yes, they are. So kindly take your cynicism elsewhere. It does not change one single iota that I am not the one saying the PLAAF hates this bird. The PLAAF is the one doing it.

Hate is too strong a word to used, considering the fact that it is yet to be inducted and used appropriately. I doubt any PLAAF officer would use that word, that too in arms show!!

I have combat experience, so don't call me an arm chair general and 2ndly, again, it's the PLAAF who are saying it whether you like it or not.

Why don't you get off your high horse and check the sources I've cited. You're the one doing the judging on my reporting of the facts. At the very least, check my sources.

Combat experiance maybe, but am doubting your analysis and the language to express the same.

 

[IceCold]

First calm down, no one is being personal with you. Conformal tanks and structural upgrade does not constitute Upgrade in the sense of Upgrade of Hornet to Super hornet.

F-16 and Mirage Upgrade are mostly Avionics onlee and I donn't understand the used f-16 mention in the context.



Hate is too strong a word to used, considering the fact that it is yet to be inducted and used appropriately. I doubt any PLAAF officer would use that word, that too in arms show!!



Combat experiance maybe, but am doubting your analysis and the language to express the same.

I second that