JF-17 Thunder: Made for the PAF

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

The supposed scenarioh ere is that the F22 cannot be seen----okay---that is fine---but only till it launches its missiles----the moment it launches at target---it position becomes known---the target will launch back multiple missiles at the point of origination ---and then the missile itself may calculate the supposed direction the F22 may take and the position where it will be when the missile intersects it.

The missile does not have to hit the F22----the proximity fuse---when it sense a body close by---will blow up the warhead.

The longer range of the Pl 15 is a concern---because the F22 will have to shoot by getting way under the umbrella of the PL15 range----unless something new comes up for the F22".

MK.....your post is full of assumptions!!!! Whoever said that a -22 is "seen" due to launching a missile is a fool. It doesn't work like that. No nation spends over 200 million per jet (total fly away and maintenance cost for 5 years), and risk of losing it due to a mili-second window opening and shutting down, just to drop a missile very quickly.

Let's see, the -22 drops an AMRAAM D from 80 miles away flying at 700 MPH at 30K feet. It takes a mili-second to drop the missile. And the jet immediately vertically climbs and speeds up to 1000 MPH and drops down to 10K feet. Within the next 30 seconds, the plane will be like 20 miles away from this missile drop location and 20K feet below.

How would your PL-XX find it? Through Magic? The ONLY thing that gives away the location is the missile's dropping and waves reflecting back from it as its a free falling metallic object, then it ignites and has afterbun coming out. So both, an advanced Radar and IR sensors will detect it. Meaning a "blip" on the radar for a second or two. So how do you tell the PL-XX to fire and that there is a -22? Even if you fired one, it won't cross 80 miles in 5 or 10 seconds. And sure, if you want to send a missile on a goose chase, that's fine, let's waste one or more missiles.

What can't be seen, can't be hit. The only exception is if the -22 was within 20-30 miles of a heavier jet like the SU-35 or the EFT with very superior IR sensors being able to look that far out. That's when it may become a little issue. But you don't have any IR missiles going out to 80 miles, or BVR missiles remembering GPS coordinates and then "hunting" for a -22 who is 25 miles away from where the initial BLIP took place.These missiles also don't have unlimited fuel and electricity to continue to operate for an hour, looking for a -22...

There is a movie called "the A team", in the early part of that movie, they show a -22 firing an AIM-9X missile, see that footage yourself to understand where I am going with my post.

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

The supposed scenarioh ere is that the F22 cannot be seen----okay---that is fine---but only till it launches its missiles----the moment it launches at target---it position becomes known---the target will launch back multiple missiles at the point of origination ---and then the missile itself may calculate the supposed direction the F22 may take and the position where it will be when the missile intersects it.

The missile does not have to hit the F22----the proximity fuse---when it sense a body close by---will blow up the warhead.

The longer range of the Pl 15 is a concern---because the F22 will have to shoot by getting way under the umbrella of the PL15 range----unless something new comes up for the F22

As far as the news is concerned----the 1 st news is normally the one where a lot of information is released---by mistake or intentionally----. Intentionally---because the reporter wants to look good and so does the news channel----because the they broke into the real thing----the mistake happens---when the turning radius was mistakenly released by a Lt col about the F22---.

Like the news about the first gulf war----L A Times----reported on the 3rd day I believe that when the U S tanks with bulldozers went in to clean up---supposedly----40000 to a 100000 Iraqi troops got buried in their trenches----. I was in L A---I had the news paper in hand---and read it myself----. Then the news just totally disappeared---no head or tail---and then popped back up after a decade or so---here is a quote from another paper

" Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf, the allied commander, said U.S. troops found "very, very many dead" in the Iraqi front lines. And Schwarzkopf's staff has privately estimated that 50,000 to 75,000 Iraqis were killed in their trenches ".

Sure, if missile launches were like video games and making noise.

However, as people who actually read about missiles like the AIM-120 would know; these missiles have various launching modes, each of them depending on the range at which it is being launched at. Normally, due to the nature of its beyond visual range (yes, that is what they are called) the idea with aircraft like the F-22 with its low-probability of intercept radar ( read here Low Probability of Intercept Radar (LPIR) so they those of you fooled by piecemeal arguments are not anymore) can get within range where it can fire its weapons without being detected.

So when it does fire the AIM-120, the missile is being guided to the targets location(or not depending upon the launch mode) by the F-22's radar until it gets close to a distance where its own onboard seeker turns on and looks for the system. So with an aircraft like the F-22, with its low observability both on its own and the low detection of its radar.. they enemy really has NO idea its about to be killed until the AIM-120's seeker goes active. By that time, the target is pretty much dead as it is and will be too busy trying to survive. Leave alone the ridiculous idea of it launching "salvo"s like some destroyer at sea.

The raptor does not end up with a kill ratio in exercises of a 1000:1 just because it cannot be seen. Its because when its hunting you, you really have have no idea its hunting you.
Now, there are ways to detect missile launches and that is via a highly sensitive and wide aspect IRST such as that on the F-35. The EOTS can detect launches >150km for A2A missiles. But so far, no other nation has shown the capability to yield that level of sophistication on IRST(and no the EOTs like thing shown on the J31 model does not count as we have no idea where it actually stands in its capabilities). Even then, with a missile already launched.. a would be enemy would still be a bit busy trying to run from the missile that is coming towards it(perhaps launching off a blind missile at the Raptor which will disappear again thanks to its LO in both radar and infrared).

At no point in all this engagement.. does the range of the PL-15 have ANYTHING to do with who shoots first. Because, even if the PL-15 can fly 5000km and its launching aircraft cannot see the target till 20km ; its range is as useful as opening your daily copy of USA today, reading about the Gulf war and thinking that you have mastered air warfare.

Now, if one goes by the green.. one can judge how the knowledge and information being provided as "ideas" come from. "One day I opened the paper and it came to me and all was truth".

The bit in red is pretty funny as best. As this is a usual excuse used of "I purposely deride things so that no sensitive information gets leaked and our enemy does not get everything".

Please, if our enemies were born yesterday and sit out their lives planning their things via Defence.pk. They are much more aware of things than we think they are and for us to especially think that because we had some discussion with an airforce officer taking a trip we suddenly are privy to the top secret is a little self aggrandizing.

There are those that talk excessively here and it is the ADMIN team that takes care of censorship where needed. But as far as our programs are concerned, the public domain has enough information available to provide enough ideas to gauge any picture presented by our Think tank team.

 

[Bilal.]

Oscar the right hand of Cthulhu our savior.

What I did say, is that the IRST system has to have automation and sensor fusion comparable to a Radar so that unlike the generation that goes into previous gen Su's.. its not a burden on the pilot to operate and have to switch on and off between sensors. Sure, he could do it.. just like h e could do Radars. But that is taking away the whole idea of ease of operation.

The benchmark for an infra-red sensor now in terms of sensor integration is the F-35' EOTS. Can something similar be done? I have mixed thoughts.

But isn't one of the basic requirement for block 3 is sensor fusion including data from other aircrafts, AEW and so forth? Surely data fusion from an IRST is a simpler task than that.

 

[Donatello]

Sure, if missile launches were like video games and making noise.

However, as people who actually read about missiles like the AIM-120 would know; these missiles have various launching modes, each of them depending on the range at which it is being launched at. Normally, due to the nature of its beyond visual range (yes, that is what they are called) the idea with aircraft like the F-22 with its low-probability of intercept radar ( read here Low Probability of Intercept Radar (LPIR) so they those of you fooled by piecemeal arguments are not anymore) can get within range where it can fire its weapons without being detected.

So when it does fire the AIM-120, the missile is being guided to the targets location(or not depending upon the launch mode) by the F-22's radar until it gets close to a distance where its own onboard seeker turns on and looks for the system. So with an aircraft like the F-22, with its low observability both on its own and the low detection of its radar.. they enemy really has NO idea its about to be killed until the AIM-120's seeker goes active. By that time, the target is pretty much dead as it is and will be too busy trying to survive. Leave alone the ridiculous idea of it launching "salvo"s like some destroyer at sea.

The raptor does not end up with a kill ratio in exercises of a 1000:1 just because it cannot be seen. Its because when its hunting you, you really have have no idea its hunting you.
Now, there are ways to detect missile launches and that is via a highly sensitive and wide aspect IRST such as that on the F-35. The EOTS can detect launches >150km for A2A missiles. But so far, no other nation has shown the capability to yield that level of sophistication on IRST(and no the EOTs like thing shown on the J31 model does not count as we have no idea where it actually stands in its capabilities). Even then, with a missile already launched.. a would be enemy would still be a bit busy trying to run from the missile that is coming towards it(perhaps launching off a blind missile at the Raptor which will disappear again thanks to its LO in both radar and infrared).

At no point in all this engagement.. does the range of the PL-15 have ANYTHING to do with who shoots first. Because, even if the PL-15 can fly 5000km and its launching aircraft cannot see the target till 20km ; its range is as useful as opening your daily copy of USA today, reading about the Gulf war and thinking that you have mastered air warfare.

Now, if one goes by the green.. one can judge how the knowledge and information being provided as "ideas" come from. "One day I opened the paper and it came to me and all was truth".

The bit in red is pretty funny as best. As this is a usual excuse used of "I purposely deride things so that no sensitive information gets leaked and our enemy does not get everything".

Please, if our enemies were born yesterday and sit out their lives planning their things via Defence.pk. They are much more aware of things than we think they are and for us to especially think that because we had some discussion with an airforce officer taking a trip we suddenly are privy to the top secret is a little self aggrandizing.

There are those that talk excessively here and it is the ADMIN team that takes care of censorship where needed. But as far as our programs are concerned, the public domain has enough information available to provide enough ideas to gauge any picture presented by our Think tank team.

Long story short, none of the BVR missiles are actually truly 'fire and forget' unless firing within the range where it's own radar can have an instant lock on the target, right? Unless of course, if the missile is guided from a AWACS many hundreds KM out...

 

[Thunder.Storm]

ALCM RA'AD is still in integration process with jf-17 i thought it is completed but it is still in progress.just dummy raad flight test happened.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The bvr missile is launched at the position of the launch---. The brain of the missile calculates the approximate speed of the aircraft that launched it and adjusts itself to its approximate distance travelled that aircraft. It does not have to have a MISSILE lock.

The F 22 missile launch will leave a signature---. With the coming radars and sensor suites---the missile launch will absolutely be detected---no ifs and buts----. So the research is more towards---" control the controlable "----. So---if you have the tech to see the missile launch---then you know that an aircraft is within the proximity of that launch---.

So your missile that you shoot will also have sensors to calculate the approximate time to the destination---how much distance that launch vehicle has travelled and where it would be----the little pea brain would also have the actual picture of the type of aircraft in it----and to top that off----it will also have 100's of FOGGY pictures of the targeted aircraft in different variations of stealth------plus it would also have sniffer for temperature change---which means if a warm body has passed thru---it will leave a heat signature----it would also have memory telling it how much of a heat signature the aircraft would eave and what would be the heat signature range detected when the missile is in the proximity of the aircraft body----so that the trigger can blow up the missile warhead.

In technical terms----if the chasing missile has 1 1/2 times the range of the shooters missile---and both missiles have the same speed---the aircraft that shot the first missile will stay in the kill range of the longer range missile---till the missile hits the aircraft or goes haywire

 

[Saifullah]

Hi,

The bvr missile is launched at the position of the launch---. The brain of the missile calculates the approximate speed of the aircraft that launched it and adjusts itself to its approximate distance travelled that aircraft. It does not have to have a MISSILE lock.

The F 22 missile launch will leave a signature---. With the coming radars and sensor suites---the missile launch will absolutely be detected---no ifs and buts----. So the research is more towards---" control the controlable "----. So---if you have the tech to see the missile launch---then you know that an aircraft is within the proximity of that launch---.

So your missile that you shoot will also have sensors to calculate the approximate time to the destination---how much distance that launch vehicle has travelled and where it would be----the little pea brain would also have the actual picture of the type of aircraft in it----and to top that off----it will also have 100's of FOGGY pictures of the targeted aircraft in different variations of stealth------plus it would also have sniffer for temperature change---which means if a warm body has passed thru---it will leave a heat signature----it would also have memory telling it how much of a heat signature the aircraft would eave and what would be the heat signature range detected when the missile is in the proximity of the aircraft body----so that the trigger can blow up the missile warhead.

In technical terms----if the chasing missile has 1 1/2 times the range of the shooters missile---and both missiles have the same speed---the aircraft that shot the first missile will stay in the kill range of the longer range missile---till the missile hits the aircraft or goes haywire

Sir
This all could happen but...Alas this is real world.
I would prefer Evolution of Optimized Low Frequency Radar over all the mention things.

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

The bvr missile is launched at the position of the launch---. The brain of the missile calculates the approximate speed of the aircraft that launched it and adjusts itself to its approximate distance travelled that aircraft. It does not have to have a MISSILE lock.

The F 22 missile launch will leave a signature---. With the coming radars and sensor suites---the missile launch will absolutely be detected---no ifs and buts----. So the research is more towards---" control the controlable "----. So---if you have the tech to see the missile launch---then you know that an aircraft is within the proximity of that launch---.

So your missile that you shoot will also have sensors to calculate the approximate time to the destination---how much distance that launch vehicle has travelled and where it would be----the little pea brain would also have the actual picture of the type of aircraft in it----and to top that off----it will also have 100's of FOGGY pictures of the targeted aircraft in different variations of stealth------plus it would also have sniffer for temperature change---which means if a warm body has passed thru---it will leave a heat signature----it would also have memory telling it how much of a heat signature the aircraft would eave and what would be the heat signature range detected when the missile is in the proximity of the aircraft body----so that the trigger can blow up the missile warhead.

In technical terms----if the chasing missile has 1 1/2 times the range of the shooters missile---and both missiles have the same speed---the aircraft that shot the first missile will stay in the kill range of the longer range missile---till the missile hits the aircraft or goes haywire

No...

The first three paragraph's are pretty redundant, since these are all "make it that way" if's and but's. But lets assume that for people understanding in practical language. The PL-15 launching aircraft picks out the F-22 and then is able to provide the PL-15 with the necessary guidance for its assumed dual seeker warhead to go after the F-22.

Now the very least distance the F-22 is going to be when launching something like the AIM-120D is around 30km. That means to do all that sniffing around for thermal signature with the pea brain.. it starts out some 30km from the launch point. By the time it gets to that launch point at say the speed most missiles travel.. MACH-4. That is 27 seconds its behind on finding out where the F-22 is going to be next. Because so far, there is nothing to suggest that the PL-15 is a basset hound. especially one that will find the F-22's signature. Chances are, it goes out there and is left wondering where to go.. while the F-22 goes for its next kill on whatever is left.

@gambit

 

[MastanKhan]

A very interesting read----bvr combat etc etc etc

BVR combat brief

 

[MilSpec]

-then you know that an aircraft is within the proximity of that launch---.

You might see the a flash or speck on you radar, but then how your evaluate which trajectory, course path, angular vector of the aircraft, altitude at the point of impact ... from the point of launch the F22 can pick any course/ any altitude/ and there is no heuristic or stochastic model to predict where the aircraft would be to launch the missile to be ina vicinity to pick up an IR signature...

Forget an Long range range AAM, write a simple equation to predict location of an object with six degrees of freedom with just 5 second gap in ER signature and see of you can be in the vicinity if the relative velocity is mach 5, you will see how complicated what you are proposing really is.

 

[Hell hound]

Hi,

The bvr missile is launched at the position of the launch---. The brain of the missile calculates the approximate speed of the aircraft that launched it and adjusts itself to its approximate distance travelled that aircraft. It does not have to have a MISSILE lock.

The F 22 missile launch will leave a signature---. With the coming radars and sensor suites---the missile launch will absolutely be detected---no ifs and buts----. So the research is more towards---" control the controlable "----. So---if you have the tech to see the missile launch---then you know that an aircraft is within the proximity of that launch---.

So your missile that you shoot will also have sensors to calculate the approximate time to the destination---how much distance that launch vehicle has travelled and where it would be----the little pea brain would also have the actual picture of the type of aircraft in it----and to top that off----it will also have 100's of FOGGY pictures of the targeted aircraft in different variations of stealth------plus it would also have sniffer for temperature change---which means if a warm body has passed thru---it will leave a heat signature----it would also have memory telling it how much of a heat signature the aircraft would eave and what would be the heat signature range detected when the missile is in the proximity of the aircraft body----so that the trigger can blow up the missile warhead.

In technical terms----if the chasing missile has 1 1/2 times the range of the shooters missile---and both missiles have the same speed---the aircraft that shot the first missile will stay in the kill range of the longer range missile---till the missile hits the aircraft or goes haywire

mate if awacs and fighters with their large radars are unable to detect f 22 until later open its belly. how a missile with limited electric supply and tiny radar (as compared to jets and awacs) can get or maintain lock after f 22s belly has been closed and it is again in stealth mode.

 

[MastanKhan]

You might see the a flash or speck on you radar, but then how your evaluate which trajectory, course path, angular vector of the aircraft, altitude at the point of impact ... from the point of launch the F22 can pick any course/ any altitude/ and there is no heuristic or stochastic model to predict where the aircraft would be to launch the missile to be ina vicinity to pick up an IR signature...

Forget an Long range range AAM, write a simple equation to predict location of an object with six degrees of freedom with just 5 second gap in ER signature and see of you can be in the vicinity if the relative velocity is mach 5, you will see how complicated what you are proposing really is.

Did you get to read the above link? Very interesting.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Very interesting, need to read 3/4 times to absorb the info.

This "Air to Air" Combat is also very interesting.
7 air-to-air combat

some key points from the BVR one

A very interesting read----bvr combat etc etc etc

BVR combat brief

 

[MastanKhan]

You might see the a flash or speck on you radar, but then how your evaluate which trajectory, course path, angular vector of the aircraft, altitude at the point of impact ... from the point of launch the F22 can pick any course/ any altitude/ and there is no heuristic or stochastic model to predict where the aircraft would be to launch the missile to be ina vicinity to pick up an IR signature...

Forget an Long range range AAM, write a simple equation to predict location of an object with six degrees of freedom with just 5 second gap in ER signature and see of you can be in the vicinity if the relative velocity is mach 5, you will see how complicated what you are proposing really is.

Hi,

Once it gets to that stage---it will be just a matter of seconds---how far can an aircraft flying at 600 miles mph go in 10 seconds---what is it---300 yds----600 yds in 20 seconds.

The aircraft won't make any instant changes in trajectory---it does not want to increase its cross section---does not want to create an anomaly----.

The missile has to be launched within a certain distance of a targeted aircraft---because that is the range of that missile---where it s launched at---that is the point of origin---and then the relative speed of the missile at launch is the relative speed of that aircraft---

Here is the thing now---it is a game of survival for the air forces that cannot afford F35 / F22 kind of technology----. So---they will find ways and means to overcome that hurdle----air borne radars and detectors----and smarter missiles---.

What if your launch your load of 8 or 12 PL15's at the F22----you have your awacs at hand---you have your own radar---your growler type support aircraft also is looking---your ground radar is also in the game

It is stated that the F 22 has evaded about 1000 missile in training---but I have yet to read how many times it had 20---24 BVR missiles launched at it at the same time---and it evaded all of them at the same time----.

 

[Indus Falcon]

A very interesting read----bvr combat etc etc etc

BVR combat brief

@MastanKhan Very good find. You deserve a +ve rating for this one

@Oscar Looking forward to your analysis.