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JF-17 Thunder - Information Pool

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i'm happy to announce that this thread has been completely updated uptill jf17 thread3
BALLOO%7E1.GIF
 
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GOOD INFO TO START THREAD4 WITH
The poster on Pakdef known as Eagle Hannan is a Pakistani engineer who works in Nanjing, China. He speaks both Urdu and Chinese fluently. He is a serious military aviation enthusiast. The city he comes from in China, Nanjing, is also the home of two of the J-10 pilots from the PLAAF that participated in the Zhuhai Air Show, 2010. He stayed at the same hotel as the PAF pilots and had many conversations with them as well as the PLAAF pilots. . Hannan attended all three public holidays and spent all three days with pilots and senior officers. Hannan has managed to collect a large amount of information and media and these have been cleared by senior personnel from the PAF for public release.

What follows is a summary of Eagle Hannan's posts from Pakdef.

Hannan describes the aerobatics display of the JF-17 as brilliant. The JF-17 flew twice every day of the air show. He notes that the weather conditions were very bad and hard to take videos in. He said that the J-10s did not perform particularly well. Hannan comments that in 14 minutes of display there was a single performance of 360 and three half-hearted loops. He observes that the rest of the displays by the J-10 were formation flights. He notes that one of the Sherdil pilots comments about the J-10 pilots in Punjabi that the old men of China cannot fly their own planes.

In comparison, the JF-17s did much better. Hannan describes the Chinese crowd as going “wild” with the Thunder’s repeated tight turns, without a single one off-target from the venue.

In his conversations with the PAF, he has found out the following:

1. JF-17s will not have CFTs (Conformal Fuel Tanks).

2. The present batch of JF-17s has certain non-Chinese subsystems.

3. Air to Air missile tests for both WVR and BVR are complete.

4. PAF is impressed with the performance of SD-10s and confirms that the missile is comparable to the AMRAAM-Cs.

5. An improved SD-10s, designated here as SD-10Bs with improved range, seeker, new motor and better seeker has been tested in China on the FC-1. These missiles are marginally lighter than the first generation and are in the same standard as the best Western BVR AAMs.

The weight of the SD-10Bs still remains slightly greater than the AMRAAM Cs but this is not an issue anymore because the performance is equal or superior. The missiles displayed in Zhuhai were not the new generation SD-10Bs but the earlier model.

PAF order for the SD-10Bs will be fulfilled before PLAAF. Previous models will be upgraded to the new SD-10B standard. [Author’s note: this may suggest that PAF have provided critical input for the SD-10Bs]

6. PAF will standardize to this SD-10Bs. First 50 will have PL-9Cs as standard WVR missiles.

7. A new radar will possibly be used in the Block II JF-17s and the first block will be upgraded. These are likely to be AESA radars with a swash-plate, similar to the Gripen NG.

8. JF-17 radars are designed to be fully multirole.

9. Various new guided munitions are being tested in China. These include SDBs (Small Diameter Bombs) ideal for the light fighter class.

10. PAF’s second squadron of JF-17s is almost ready and flight trials are earmarked for early next year.

11. China is confirmed (yet again and without any doubt whatsoever) to buy the FC-1s. Consequently, production is being expanded in Pakistan’s production facilities, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), to meet the demand. These facilities are located in Kamra.

12. Close cooperation on the J-10B is taking place. The level of cooperation has been significantly expanded since 2009. The size of the cooperation is described as literally a small city-like facility to accommodate PAF and Pakistani civilian engineers. Hannan confirmed that civilian engineers from PAC are also part of the cooperation in China.

13. The J-10B will have Chinese radar and western subsystems will allow it to be integrated with Erieye and Chinese AWACS. This is not an assumption and Eagle Hannan, who is a telecom engineer himself, confirms that this is not a technical problem and reconfirms from PAF. There is no problem as long as the protocol messages and handshake procedures are known. He found out that PAF has a solution in terms of the middleware.

14. The middleware will not only be via a C4I but also direct communication middleware. Some of these are being developed in-house and some are being imported.

15. Whether JF-17s can data link with Erieye has not been confirmed due to diplomatic/political reasons. However, Hannan notes that from his discussions, it is implicitly obvious that they definitely can.


16. IFR (In-Flight Refueling) will be installed in later batches. These will be fixed IFRs and not retractable. [Author’s note: radar signature and aerodynamics penalty paid for simplicity of construction, cost and maintenance]. The JF-17s were designed from the ground-up to have IFRs installed.

17. Next block of JF-17s will have IRST (Infra-Red Search & Track) similar to those installed on the J-10B.

18. Pakistani ALCM Raad and H2/H4 ASM will be integrated and was a major reason why Pakistan has chosen to go with Chinese radars for Block 2 JF-17s.

19. Advanced composites have been tested for use on the Block 2 JF-17s. Present JF-17s also use some composites. J-10B/FC-20 is designed from inception from new advanced composites. FC-20s in PAF service will form the top tier in the PAF (above the F-16 Block 52+).

20. PAF denied any collaboration in Chinese 5th generation fighter program as this is a capability they are not familiar with.





PAF at that time was not confident on J-10 as a top tier AC. But once Chinese allowed us in on design and avionics, PAF did cut orders for F-16s. I remember when early J-10 cockpit pictures were released, we all concluded that it’s no better than JF-17 and then near exact layout was brought in on J-10s later since Pakistan committed to J-10B.
Sir, for J-10s Pakistan is given very generous deal, inshallah I'll write about it when I am permitted to. I must commend Chinese for their business ideas. They knew Pakistan back in 2005/6 is not interested in J-10s and that simply means no market for J-10 outside China as the world sees Pakistan as the launch customer of anything good coming from China. Examples are J6/F-6, J7/F-7, J7MGs/F-7PG and inshallah FC-1/JF-17s. There was no sales of JH-7 and J-8MII, even when they were offered to many and are serving PLAAF in numbers.
I think, it was PakDef where back in 2006, I wrote that there is serious evaluation of J-10 going on. PAF saw the potential and wanted R&D with Chinese on another version of partially same air frame but improved avionics. PAF brought in their info on an F-16 version avionics that was to be unveiled in Middle East. In fact the RFP sent to LM was forwarded to Chinese with minor changes (That’s not my assumption or speculation).
As per Allah's will and thankfully it was in a good way that we finally decided to peal away from US dependence. I can imagine if we would have put our eggs in US basket, what would have been the situation today. "Never again" was rightly exercised.
Right now, the planned acquisition of J-10B's first batch is in mid of 2013 Inshallah. Engine is a hurdle (this is my speculation). We might not want to go for AL31FN and as per my info WS-10 is not failed but having teething problems, bad ones. Other than that, I confirm the engine is built with high grade materials and new labs are being built to check the manufacturing process for it. This shows commitment and promise. Some PAF personal visiting these labs told me, they are impressed. Nanjing institute is prime contractor for Radar (both Air born and AD. AD team is here already and inshallah we'll see some joint project in AD as well)for PAF.
 
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friends ,plz post only info tidbits---- NO COMMENTS-- its a spam free thread
 
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By eagle hannan
Yet again, great Munir sahib brought correct news, Confirmed from my contacts. We have already expanded the production capability as posibility of export is very fair and since Chinese production lines for FC-1 are at present limited, PAC might support it for major parts. Confirmation on this from Chinese side is pending. IN that case, production lines will be further expanded. It's good that this time around, we'll be helping Chinese as well.
The 21(number of aircraft) Munir sahib mentioned are ready. Status is confirmed. I wonder why there is no ceremony held so far for formal induction. Its already Month's end. INshallah after 31st, there would be more good news.
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and some design explaination by eaglehannan
Lifting body using LERX is a compromise on actual wing area for greater low speed handling. But then all aerodynamic structures are compromises for one thing or the other. You'll notice nothing hanging under them in any aircraft using LERX for increased maneuverability at low speeds. The actual wing is reduced for stores but there is a catch. LERX contribute to wing strength and now on fewer stores you can have multi ejection racks. Now it’s all about how smartly the racks are used to present least drag to airflow. PAF made the right choice. Kept the handling and sacrificed for hard points. You can have more stores if you delete LERX but then you will have a lesser maneuverability. So they kept the maneuverability, moved the load to multiple ejectors/smart ejectors.

I would also have loved to see bubble canopy but anything higher than fuselage means drag. With already gone for drag presenting multiple ejector option, may be designers opted to cut on bubble canopy.

I always wanted to know why they did not move to side stick controls and 30 degree reclined seat like that in F-16s. I found out that it actually was one of the ideas presented when Super 7 project became FC-1 project but Chinese had no experience in designing a side stick responding to variations in applied pressures and even when the data was presented to them by some means, It could not be incorporated with JF-17s flyby wire which was then available. Many things were to go wrong and so side stick was abandoned. I think the side stick control has only now popped up in L-15.

With side stick gone there was no point in keeping 30 degree reclined seat as its impossible to sit on such a reclined angle and use the stick in the middle of one's legs.
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Munir sahib explaining the need of LERX
LERX..

Militarily speaking, it is interesting for a fighter, involved in a dogfight for example, to decrease its speed as much as possible in order to let
a faster airplane go ahead. By this manoeuvre, the fastest plane of both go ahead of its adversary and then allows the slower airplane
stay behind him in position of shooting.

It is vital for the fighters to fly fast to be able to reach a zone of intervention as soon as possible, but it is critical too to be able to fly as slow
as possible while keeping the plane control in order to be able to ensure itself to remain behind the adversary and therefore in offensive
position.

In that way, the LERX provide a considerable supplement of lift at raised angles of attack, i.e. when the angle formed by the wings and the
relative wind direction due to the displacement of the plane increases.
Indeed, the LERX generate powerful swirls of air or Vortex which increase the air velocity on the roots of wings and around tails. This makes
it possible to keep the control of the plane at angles superiors of 30˚. These Vortices when are intenses are particularly visible,
materialized by the condensation of the moisture of air.
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continuous redesigning? (pshamim)
This is due to Transonic Wave Drag at Transonic Speed at o.8 Mach. You can find a lot of information on the net. This is not a serious problem and would disappear as we see the newer Thunders.
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on Significance of BVR (especially for K-100 fan club :P )
Lets see what exactly is the intended capability of a BVR weapon. BVR is not to make kills, in most cases and in combat situation it will Not be killing as much as detering intruder from achieving his goals. Though not a killer in true meaning, a BVR still is a game changer. An intruder knowing he'z been shot at will be forced to abandon the mission and multiple shots mean assurance that intruder is now totally accupied with evasive actions and spending time and fuel on doing nothing while the interceptors are closing from directions for the End Game (SRAAM). Intruder intercepted and shot at, will have to empty stores and run back. This is what the weapon is for, derailing intruder's mission, taking it to End game.
Detection platforms like Erieye and interceptors with BVR at the biggest concern for any intruder. All BVRs are prone to jamming/manuvering. Mostly it's employed like:

Intruder detected, no friendlies in the area, hostile confirmed, Fire BVR at max range. Close in to higer PK/NEsc zone, and shoot another 2, let him jam it up and manuver to evade, if he couldnt jam it in time, and is caught in certain energy situations, he'z hit or else close in and End the game.

Definately, the ranges are important. Max range in INdia Pakistan scenario really matters. Resistance to jamming is another important requirement of a potent BVR. Since they are radar guided and there is response time, BVRs are subjected to jamming and countermeasure/manuvering but once fired, they change the whole game for intruder, even the best pilot in a very good plane will be occupied when shot at, even if the ECMs are automatically trying to jam incoming shot, pilot will keep an eye on the line showing him the shot coming towards him, just to be sure. So if you add it up with over whelming multiple shots at mid and max ranges, you've dettered the best fighter from its mission. Your mission acomplsihed even if he turns around and runs back.
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some other useful information..... and IRST on Block II (by EH)
Truth is I was sceptical of SD-10 being as good as Ammaram120C series but after listening such prase from PAF, I had to change my mind. I still remember 2008 when I talked to another family member in PAF and I was told that, it did not impress in trials, may be work on the new improved version was started long time ago but this is for sure that even though I brought in weight isuse and "Chinese" tech issue, both the senior members of PAF at Zhuhai said weight of this version is a bit less but still more than Ammaram120c but the performace in all parameters is same and thus weight is a non-issue. Its pretty much decided. According to PAF, the mass production of this version will begin soon. PAF order (no answer to how many) will be fulfilled first before PLAAF and all existing PLAAF SD-10s will be upgraded (seems like dimensions will be same, motor and seeker is upgraded). The displayed SD-10 is the earlier version. I did not ask SD-10A or B or what.
IFR of external type /fixed will be in later batches, provision for IFR (dont know what it means, may be the fuel line or internal mechanism of some kind, still exists in all JF-17s produced)
IRST like in J-10B is amoung the main upgrades of next block. I asked about Raad and home grown H2/H4 integration and I was told that this is the main reason why even block 2 JF-17s might be equiped with Chinese radars (I dont know what to make up of "it can be AESA in vertical and mecahinally scanned in horizontal") because of ease of integration and collaboration of Chinese/Pakistani Engineers. PAF personal did acknowledged presence of civilian Engineers from PAC in Chingdu. Thats new or may be not.

Advanced materials are tested for JF-17s in China and block 2 will make use of composites, even current JF-17s are not all conventional materials. J-10B/FC20 will use composites from the get go and with Blk52s in hand, may be PAF is raising the bar for J-10Bs/FC20.

Asked a question about 5th generation fighter collaboration with China. PAF personal denied any collaboration at present and has this to say "we can not help develope a capability which we dont know. Like we dont know what kind of sesor suit is in F-22, other than what we find from open source. Such capability/requirement generation is not Air Force job but such technolgy information is brought in by other means (espionage or intelligence i think this is what he meant). We all know F-22 is stealth but what else it can do is what we dont know. JF-17s are developed because we knew what we wanted from a 4th generation fighter as we already had an experience with capability, either by existing system or by our collaboration with other air forces. Even US Air force only comes to know new capability when its presented to it. Chinese on the other hands have means to bring such information and develpe on such information and PAF does not. We'll see what they bring up." SO this pretty much settles it, we are waiting for Chinese to develope it and at present no collaboration in developement. With Sukhoi show casing PAKFA video in Zhuhai airshow on their stall (tried to upload the fregin video but couldnt, please someone PM me your Email, i will send you through large files.com and then you may put it on youtube for all to see), i think PAF needs to do sstart thinking on these lines now. PakFa is here and Chinese are not coming up with anything.
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JF-17s are not going CFT way. The current batch of JF-17s do have some non-Chinese subsystems. Air to Air missile tests are complete and PAF is certainly impressed with SD-10. Infact without me asking for comparison, its confirmed that the missle demostratres as advertised in comparison to the Ammaram120Cs we got from US. An improved version of SD-10 is with improved range, new motor and better seeker is tested in CHina on Chinese version FC-1. This would be the version PAF has opt for as standard BVR for JF-17s. For first 50 PL9C would be standard. Chinese have this year marketed another version of KLJ radar for JF-17 which might find its way in 2nd block JF-17s while the first would be upgraded as well. JF-17s have all modes for ground attack and from inception is a multirole. guided missle tests with new Chinese weapons are being carried out in China. The 2nd squadern is almost ready and flight trails will begin early next year inshallah. China will buy JF-17s in their own version and therefore PAC is expanding its production capability to meet demands.
Close cooperation just like JF-17 is being done for J-10B. The level of cooperation has reached a new height since 2009 and a small city like facility is being created for PAF/civilian Engineers of PAF and PAC in Chingdu. J10B has a lot of Pakistani input. J-10Bs radar will be Chinese and western subsystems will enable it to communicate with Erieye and Chinese AWACS (This is no assumption, being a telecom Engineer myself, I really wanted to know whats the middleware for 2 different AWACS and looks like PAF has a solution). Earlier I also used to think that western and Chinese system will be kind of working in Issolation but then the PAF guys told me that they already have an established middleware in the form of C4I system and direct communication enabling modules are being developed inhouse with the help of Chinese and others are imported (Basically this service enabling capability is no rocket science, given the protocol messages are known along with handshake procedures for transmission). Seems like this oddest of combos unlike any airforce in the world might actually work for PAF. I wish someone does an interview with the project manager on this particular issue.
NO answer if the currect JF-17s can establish data link with Erieye or not but I assume they definately can.
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pshamim sahib also hinting PLAAF inducting JFT
Thnak you Mo Khan Saheb for posting the links.

Impeccable performance by Thunder. Though a three aircraft formation was planned, it was a solo due to the weather conditions. We should have more videos coming out with all three together. Regardless, it was a stunning performance by a veray capable aircraft.

There is news that PLAAF will be ordering 150 copies of teh JF-17 inspite of rumors by some that China will not order any JF-17.
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for the people who think Russia will block the engines for JFT (courtesy Munir sahib)
I saw the 7% upgraded RD93 (plastic model rd33MK) displayed in Zuhai. Why would Russia do that if they do not offer it for the JF17?
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twin seater JFT (Pshamim)
Let us hope that we see a 2 seater versionof Thunder next year. China was not interested in a 2 seat FC-1 but Pakistan is paying the R&D costs to develop the 2 seater jf-17.
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Famous interview of EH
I have asked already if I can post it on forums. The following questions were to senior officers. I am recalling this from memory.

Question "Why PAF does not do regular exercises with PLAAF? and have we evaluated their big aircrafts? Is this true that there was some consideration for J-11s"

Answer "We dont have to publicize all our training programs and PLAAF is a very close partner, soon we'll be flying same kind of Aircrafts so of course there has always been an interaction. PLAAF's Sukhoi platforms are nice and before J10B, there was a consideration for J-11s in limited numbers to replace mirrages but now there is no such consideration anymore"

Question "Whats the trust about kill switches in F-16s?"

Answer "You know the level of trust between the two countries, there is nothing discovered as such for now but may be its possible. New electronics can be very complicated"

Question "Why do we have to allow these F-16s be monitored by US personal on our bases and what do they do sit on a chair in front of F-16s all day? Whats the point of having an aircraft which we cant even fly where US doesnt want to and which cant even be parked along side other airforce platforms?"

Answer "No there is no such ristriction but there are some conditions we bought F-16s with. We have all the control on our aircraft. They are only a few aircrafts."

Question: "But India is offered F-16sIN which is most advanced block of F-16 till date with production rights and what not and we are given only a handfull of down graded F-16s and then they blame us for slipping tech to China."

Answer: "Offer to them are for political reasons and weapons offered are not necessarily to tease Pakistan but to achive some other US strategic goal. China has its own sources of information and tech transfer does not require Pakistan to fly a block52 in China and let China steal technology."

Question: "May be it is containment of China you meant as US strategic goal for which it wants to arm India but such systems will effect Pakistan. Sir, how do you see it?"
Answer: "Pakistan is drifting away from relience on USA for weapons, Block52 might not be the most advanced aircraft in PAF within a few years from now."

Question: "How do you see PakFa?"
Answer: "I saw the Video in Sukhoi stand. Looks nice."

Question: "Sir will China buy JF-17s?
Answer: "Yes of course, they have annouced it already"

I am writing it all from memory. I have a few minutes of break and then i have to get to work. Its my bussiest time of 2010. Please pardon me for writting in TOTAs
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another useful post by eh
Sir,

According to Airforce people, we can not invest on an Engine we can not upgrade within its physical dimentions. WS series engine is so far not ready and I believe has some kind of set backs due to which some RD93+ like RD33MK version displayed as model in Zhuhai airshow might be the upgrade. The PAF person said, the time for WS engine incorporation has come and gone on JF-17s. We are happy with current Engine. May be Chinese mature the Engine in a couple of years but by then we'll be operating the russian Engine in numbers. The joint license manufacturing of RD93 did not materialize with China and Russia because Chinese are very much concerned with the JD10s engine. It is also expected to be russian AL-31FN for coming years.
I also asked about the thrust to weight ratio. Instead i asked, isnt JF-17 under powered ? The asnwer was it is certainly not the case, thrust to weight ratios is a general ratio which does not takes into account, the aircraft's design. JF-17s do not bleed energies as much as Delta platforms do, or for that matter J-10s and Mirrages. J-10 needs much higher thrust to maintain a turn at given altitude and recover from a near still situation while JF-17s can manage such situations in the available thrust easily so in field, JF-17s not just match turn rates but are also economical. While more thrust is handy in loadouts, JF-17s fare well with any compition in all situations. Current engine is very responsive and thats another reason why the current thrust to weight ratios are excellent.

I used to think of Weight to Thrust ratio as literal terms without paying attention to design. I am very thankful to a PAF engineer who made me understand the concept in a very nice way. Here is my version of it.
Basicaly, its like you turn hard and climb, aircarft is loosing energy. Lets say you have a 25000lbs thrust in hand but the engine is not very responsive. Now while you are engaging AB or setting it to higher thrust, the low response engine is slowly changing gears for settling at your thrust rating, you have lost enough energy to now go a few steps higher thrust after the engine settles to compesative speed and maintain turn. This all happens in a sec or two but your higher thrust Engine's response time actually made you apply more thrust each time. This is called energy Bleed to engine Response ratio.
Now if you have a 18300lbs thrust engine with quicker response, you turn and climb along with instant setting of higher thrust and engine responds near instantly (no engine responds instantly) then before your rate of climb could decline or your speed drop enough to compensate with a little higher setting, you have completed the turn or are sustaining the turn energy bleed with much less hectic thrust changes to throttle and aircaft is climbing as desired.
2 things come to play. Pilot experience with energies and given aircraft's energy bleeds ratio to engine response and aircrafts own aerodynamics.
RD-93 in service with PAF are impressive according to pilots and engineers and while they would welcome a new within same dimention upgrade, I doubt they'll go for Chinese Engine. May be FC1 could have a Chinese Engine. To me its logical, while RD93 can be upgraded to RD33MK or some RD93MK, PAF MAY BE can not bring an all new Engine and return the RD93 engine to russia or scrap the earlier engines. It all comes down to spending power, which we do not have.
Even though PAF personal did not say they will not bring in WS engine but the logic i think speaks for itself.

The hard points might not be increased as I recall asking. INstead JF-17s are using dual launching rails for AAMs and AGMs. When i asked if we might see more hard points in any version, answer was JF-17s with its current hard points is optamised with wing area and flight performance so there is a possibility to add chin mounted HPs for PODs and electronics but not for any other purpose.

IMHO if PAF decides to add more hard points, it might needs to increase wing area. Lifting LERX have taken up a lot of space on wings if you notice so that version with enlarge wings might need a new engine to compensate drag and that means bigger fuselage, means NOT JF-17s. I doubt PAF will go with such complexity.

Brothers I am sorry for not uploading videos. Inshallah in coming days when my presentations would be over, I will definately share with you the videos and some info on drone and a possible candidate to arm UAVs with. Also inshallah upload pictures of Singapore Airshow.
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PShamim and Munir on Brizilian weapons integration
I see no possibility of JF-17 in Brazilian Air Force at the moment. What happens in the future, is yet to be seen. But Mectron Mar-1 is being integrated with JF-17, That is the only Brazilian connection with Thunder.
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Pshamim, there is no synaps in my mind to disagree with you, Murad (and his son!) or many other pakistani that are admired. I think the text posted earlier is a little inaccurate. The Brazilians have helped us (and not China) with seperation trials/info on the MAR-1 and will do that if we go for the next generation WVR (or maybe BVR). It is not related to SD-10. But you hit the button correct... At the moment not even a serious option but I think we might see changing after block 2 which will be closer to something good enough and well priced item with lots of development options. If you add AESA, a little more stealth or TVC then I think it will be intresting for everyone. You see may nations decrease number of planes that are active. I think you will see next move to buy cheaper alternative cause you cannot seen as a party without an airforce. And you can see that the prices of the latest are unrealistic. The f35 just went up 20%... As if it was cheap priced... I think most people tend to compare it with latest like F35 or F22... But we should see it as mid-low option which is cheap and effective. With the option to get TOT and plug and play we hit the button. This is the best timing for such a plane. That is the reason that even Gripen sells pretty good...
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Didn't we buy couple of MAA-1A a few months ago? And we would be interested in MAA-1B according some info. So the separation trials assistance could be MAA-1A and MAR-1 cause that part is done by Pakistan.
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Yes. We got some last August and September. B version still in testing but contracts may have been signed. India is not very happy and it thinks because of Brazil and India being part of BRIC Brazil should not support Pakistan.

However, theremay have been an agreemnt in place according to which Pakistan and Brazil, probably Mectron will share the development costs 50:50. I am not sure if the agreement was for MAR-1 or MAA-1B. Mectron is reported to have added 60 more engineers after the agreement so it is most likely to benefit from this agreement.
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