JF-17 Thunder - Information Pool

[Manticore]

The original radar to compete the Grifo-S was Type 1471 developed around 2003 and tested on a J-8 platform, pulse Doppler, 660 mm antennae, look down shoot down and track on 8 targets simultaneously and engage 2 in SA mode. The 664 mm figure was given by me who has info from someone involved in the project but much info is hard to come by, however, PAF requirement was atleast 650 mm diameter, nothing less.

Selex offered two variants of Grifo-s, one was 600 mm antennae, another had a staggering 800 mm but the overall nose modification had to be redone to a great deal and consumed a lot of time. Grifo also had messy SA modes and no compatibility with SD-10, which was the prime need for JF-17. After a rework, they came up with better SA and SAR mode but still no compatibility with SD-10. While China had successfully developed a subset of the J-10 radar with bigger (664 mm vs 600 mm antenna for Grifo-s) radar and better digital signal processor allowing more processing and a more powerful transmitter allowing a peak output of 7-8 kw. This radar was still subjected to more testing on J-8 testbed and by 2006, was finally revealed in a brochure as the KLJ-7 variant. The radar antenna diameter is not a fantasy but an accepted reality. A member calculated some numbers by pixels which is his opinion and i respect it.

In general, comparison of jf-17 with f-16 is not justified due to different classifications for both in general performance, agreed. However, in terms of general capability, f-16 has a monster of an engine i.e. the PW 120-GE-110, 25000-29000 pounds thrust with afterburner allowing much higher payloads and overall range but the jf-17 has much powerful avionics and radar which is comparable to most modern fighters out there and which the f-16 (pre- block 52 models) lack such as a powerful mission computer with spare upgradability room for further upgrades, complete glass cockpit environment and ability to carry a complete set of Chinese Pakistani/ and most guided weapons in air to air, air to surface and air to sea modes.

via nabil..........................................................

 

[Manticore]

via nabil once again..............

China has bought rights to manufacture the Grifo-S radar under the designation of Falcon S7, more info can be read here....

China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation - Airborne Radar

Here is the short article that was published in Kanwa defense review, notice the two radar antennae size, which indicates that there is even room to accommodate 800 mm antenna with modifications and pushing some changes, but it is an option on jf-17.
Kanwa (June 2004 issue).



June 2004;

The competition for the airborne radar system used on FC1/JF17 FC1 has entered a very critical stage.” Last summer, the company fitted a GRIFO-S7 multi-purpose radar on Sabliner aircraft for testing and invited Pakistani representatives to observe the testing process. Galileo Avionica indicated that if China wants to obtain this type of radar system for further testing, the company would be willing to provide the radar to China.
On August 25, 2003, FC1/JF17 had the first trial flight. Currently, Galileo Avionica is using GRIFO-S7 to compete with the Russian Phazotron Company’s KOPYO F radar. Galileo Avionica demonstrated to Kanwa more details of GRIFO-S7. The radar’s transmitter output power has been increased to 500W, and it uses two types of antenna, with diameters of 600mm and 800mm respectively. The 600mm antennae’s detect range is 80km, while the search range of the 800mm antennae is more than 100km. What is being promoted to Pakistan is the 600mm antenna whose weight is 110kg. Galileo Avionica has conducted a very in-depth study of FC1. Galileo Avionica claims that they can provide 800mm GRIFO-S7 radar for FC1, but this may mean the location of the radar on board will have to be moved 400mm backward. And as a consequence, the whole electronic system will also have to be moved 400mm backwards. Galileo Avionica is capable of conducting such upgrading, and yet the total cost will increase. The GRIFO-S7 fitted with these two types of antenna is capable of tracking 16 targets in the air and attack 6 of them simultaneously. It adopts two-channel receiver data processing system. The MTBF for GRIFO-S7 is 220 hours. Galileo Avionica stresses that GRIFO-S7 is compatible with the SD10 active radar guided AAM weapon control software. GRIFO-S7 has 25 different air-to-air and air-to-surface operation modes.

Kanwa was informed that the French THALES had stepped up their effort to bid for the radar system used on FC1. THALES introduced RC400 to the parties involved and had also invited Pakistan to conduct air test of the system on Falcon 20 this year. RC400 has a weight of 120kg, output power 400W. It adopts mechanical scanning. THALES says the radar is capable of tracking as many as 32 targets in the air simultaneously.




the third prototype of FC1 (JF17) fighter would have flying test in March 2004. The prototype FC1 is expected to conduct flying control experiments.

The fourth FC1 prototype will be fitted with domestic making KLJ10 fire control radar. Thus, whether the Chinese Air Force is going to order FC1 or not will very likely be determined after the flying tests of the fourth FC1 fighter are completed. It is not yet known the history of KLJ10 development. In 1999, China imported four sets of Kapyo radar systems from Russian Phazptron. Pakistan plans to have flying tests of the first batch 12 JF17 fighters from 2006. According to the memorandum signed by the two sides, Pakistan is expected to start the production of FC1 in January 2006. However, Kanwa has doubt about this production schedule, which will very likely be put off till later.

All technological tests of SD10 active radar guidance air-to-air missile have been completed. Small batch production of the missile can start in the middle of this year, the source said. SD10 was first tested on J8II fighters, with all five firing tests hitting the expected targets. A source says the missile will be installed on the fourth FC1 for some further and decisive testing. The source adds China hopes to export FC1 bundled with SD10. Thus, the combat performance of SD10 on FC1 is critical.

 

[Safriz]

already posted on a sister forum..
This is a picture of JF-17 model in singapore airshow...
Looks like a different nose cone and air intake.

One good thing about JF-17 is that very soon it will be equipped with chinese indigenous GPS the Beidou-2 / 3..which is far more accurate and resistant to Jamming and spoofing than the American GPS. ...And will have a much larger constellation of satellites.

 

[Dazzler]

deleted...

 

[razgriz19]

already posted on a sister forum..
This is a picture of JF-17 model in singapore airshow...
Looks like a different nose cone and air intake.

One good thing about JF-17 is that very soon it will be equipped with chinese indigenous GPS the Beidou-2 / 3..which is far more accurate and resistant to Jamming and spoofing than the American GPS. ...And will have a much larger constellation of satellites.

i think the nose and intakes are the same, i think its just the model itself. they cant really make everything exactly like real thunder. maybe its just the model...(my guess)

 

[Dazzler]

Airforce Daily, November 2011 Issue.....Alan Warnes Speaks, again....



"Tasked with the privilege of flying the JF-17s in the flying display was Wg Cdr Ronald, a Flight Commander from 26 Squadron, supported by Wg Cdr Rashid (Flight Commander from 16 Squadron) who flew on Tuesday 15th. Both wore their new ‘Thunder Solo Display’ patch proudly on their flying suits – having seen so many other display pilots at Izmir in June wearing their own official insignias. The eight-minute solo display saw the Thunder being put through its paces, with the pilot pulling an impressive 8G during some of the manoeuvres that included a vertical roll. Wg Cdr Ronald, who flew the display four times, is a former F-16 pilot who has been with JF-17s for a year-and-a -half. His unit, 26 Squadron at Peshawar, is tasked with training pilots. When compared to the F-16, Wg Cdr Ronald says ‘the JF-17 does not lose speed in the turn as the F-16 does’.

According to an F-16 engineer I spoke to, this is attributed to the curved Leading Edge Roots in front of the wings. It must have been tough at times for both the pilots after the news filtered back to Dubai on the third day of the show that one of their colle gues, Sqn Ldr Hussain, had been killed while flying a Thunder in Pakistan. The JF-17 community is relatively young but very
close and Sqn Ldr Hussain was a senior member who had served with 26 Squadron before being posted to 16 Squadron earlier this year.


Of the three JF-17s, looking very smart in their 16 Squadron ‘Black Panther’ The aircraft makes a sharp turn during the display markings on the tail and fuel tanks, two were used for the flying display, one acting as a spare (11-128) for the other (11-134); while the other example (11-130) resided in the static display, with a plethora of new weapons that are operational on the jet, including the SD-10 Beyond Visual Range air-to-air missile, PL-5EII medium range air to air missile, WD-7 targeting pod, LT-2 1,000lb (454kg) laser guided bomb, C-802 anti-shipping missile and LS-6 Extended Range 1,000lb (454kg) bomb – converted from a dumb bomb into a ‘smart guided missile’ courtesy of a guidance kit which boosts its range to around 40 miles (60kms).
To date, 38 of the 42 JF-17 Block 1s have been delivered – with the last due to be handed over by March/April 2012. Production of the first of 50 Block 2s will commence almost immediately and run up to December 2015. This latest, more capable batch will, according to Air Marshal Rao, boast ‘aircraft with more air-to-air capability, enhanced avionics, air to air refuelling and a two-seat version’. The Block 3s are expected to begin rolling off the production line from 2016 onwards and will undoubtedly be enhanced further, possibly with new datalink systems, weapons and a Chinese engine.



To all members, this must end the debate whether SD-10 and other weapons operational on the 1st batch or not.

Credit goes to our fellow member, Tempest 11

 

[Donatello]

But the production rate is too slow!!!

By 2015 we will have only 100 Thunders! The plane was to have all by 2015.

 

[Manticore]

Kanwa had an interview with PAF's General Javaid Ahmed, during which he stated that:
- In 2012, they will be bring out the JF17 Blk 2. The main improvements are the addition of IRF, the development of a twin seat version, adding datalink and development of an export version JF17.
- happy with the performance of the KJL7, so no immediate plans to switch to AESA (KJL7 specs: detection range for fighter sized target 130km; can track 16 targets and engage 2 at the same time; have SAR mapping capability)
- The Chinese indigenous engine is currently undergoing flight testing and may be a while before it is fitted to a JF17
- In 2011 the JF17 test fired: 1 x C802 (hit a seaborne target 90km away, max range 180km); 2 x LS-6 bombs, one is a 500kg GPS guided weapon with 60km range and CEP of 15m, the other was a 250kg laser/IIR+GPS guided weapon with a range of 65km and CEP of 5.3-7.5m; SD10 and other weapons.

translation credits -Plawolf

 

[SBD-3]

Pervaiz Shamim Sahib

There has been a lot of progress at Kamra. Chengdu has transferred a whole CNC capability to Kamra. Which means that Kamra will be able to measure and build the complete airframe in Pakistan and not China as currently done. With this capability, Pakistan can measure,manufacture and deploy without being totally dependednt on another country.
JF-17 Related Discussion - 2012

 

[Jango]

Pervaiz Shamim Sahib

Another major milestone I believe.

More in house capabilities do only good.

 

[Jango]

According to an F-16 engineer I spoke to, this is attributed to the curved Leading Edge Roots in front of the wings. ...

The LERX and DSI are a major plus point of the JF-17, concerning the aerodynamics of the aircraft and lower radar deflection.

 

[sancho]

the other was a 250kg laser/IIR+GPS guided weapon with a range of 65km and CEP of 5.3-7.5m

Can somebody tell me which weapon this was?

 

[Manticore]

maybe they are talking about H2/4 --one was rumoured to be a missile , other a guided bomb .. if i'm correct , recalling sir pshamims post

H-2 is a AGM, [perhaps version of raptor 1/2]while H-4 is the BVRAAM with 120KM range


H-4 test was definitly a BVR AAM.120km range [paf indeginous T-Darter version?] integrated with the Mirage's Grifo M radar

paf also has a r-darter indeginous variant


you can search for 2 threads on defence .pk
H2 And H4 are AAM Or AGM?
AIR-TO-AIR MISSILES: Command of the air

credits- wangrong

 

[sancho]

maybe they are talking about H2/4

Which are rumored to be stand off missiles / weapons and it would be surprising if they would weight just 250Kg and were laser guided. No, it sounds more like a LGB comparable to Paveway series, I just wondered why it is given with more range than LS-6, which hints to wings or a AASM propulsion type.

The triple racks of JF 17 afaik are used for dumb bombs only.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Which are rumored to be stand off missiles / weapons and it would be surprising if they would weight just 250Kg and were laser guided. No, it sounds more like a LGB comparable to Paveway series, I just wondered why it is given with more range than LS-6, which hints to wings or a AASM propulsion type.

The triple racks of JF 17 afaik are used for dumb bombs only.

Can you tell us from which source you are quoting the bold part ??

The below pic shows the GBU-12 bombs configuration on a dual ejector rack, thus clearly showing that JF-17 MER can support PGMs be it laser ones or GPS ones.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/392/fc1weaponsconfigyf0.jpg/sr=1

I also have seen pics of Chinese JDAMs on MER on different aircrafts, noticeably on JH-7s.