Featured JF-17 Emerged As The Star of Swift Retort

[Longhorn]

Why was IAF so illprepared just one day after the events of 27 Feb?

Complacency.
If you take the mentality of the PDF Indian posters as typical, where they are and always have been all powerful and extrapolate that to the Indian military, then you get a clearer picture.
They thought we would never dare to retaliate.
They had it in their heads that we were smaller, weaker, financially struggling, therefore afraid.
What they didn't take into consideration was our resolve, determination and courage.
They thought they had established the new normal where they could threaten us at will and carry out punitive strikes to reinforce their hegemony.
Instead what they got was a bloody nose and a new normal set by us i.e attack us and we will retaliate.

 

[SQ8]

Well that Viper was exiting initially. And regarding the MKI, the EW personnel have data for the claim. If they are not releasing any more info (and by that I mean PAF), then it is entirely up to them. Either way, A CONFIRMED kill and I repeat A CONFIRMED KILL was enough to shatter confidence.

@Ark_Angel
I would encourage the rest of the folks here as I have in the past - from our perspective Swift Retort was a Day-In-The-Life test for our training and its done.
From a pure PAF perspective - it was nothing special when the variety of scenarios trained for and tools available are taken into account. It is time to move on and focus on whatever else the IAF tries to cook up.


History does repeat itself and much like 71 after 65.. the IAF has licked its wounds and is prepping furiously; it wont be a cake walk next time since the challenges are beyond the PAF but they do impact it - and Pakistanis can only hope to mitigate those impacts

 

[The Eagle]

Complacency.
If you take the mentality of the PDF Indian posters as typical, where they are and always have been all powerful and extrapolate that to the Indian military, then you get a clearer picture.
They thought we would never dare to retaliate.
They had it in their heads that we were smaller, weaker, financially struggling, therefore afraid.
What they didn't take into consideration was our resolve, determination and courage.
They thought they had established the new normal where they could threaten us at will and carry out punitive strikes to reinforce their hegemony.
Instead what they got was a bloody nose and a new normal set by us i.e attack us and we will retaliate.

On the same level of thought process where IAF/Indian Establishment miscalculated a lot and so believed into some propaganda settled norms about Pakistan, it is time for us to not to fall into same mirage. The new IAF Chief Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria is different than B.S Dhanoa who was only interested for political promotion of Modi and found it all wrong in the end.

R.K.S Bhadauria in the office is already serious about making necessary changes into fighting capability of IAF, upping the game be it in implementing phase and then a serious yet less spoken guy who considers everything into account before making final decisions unlike his predecessor that was only capable to please Modi.

Unless, the new IAF chief tuns out to be or in-case made one like previous pleasing gang; we will have to keep up with challenges and should not let the guard down. We will need to keep up with new dynamics of air warfare and so also by updating ourselves about the adversary for all they have, the capability & the possibilities of IAF.

 

[Ark_Angel]

Well that Viper was exiting initially. And regarding the MKI, the EW personnel have data for the claim. If they are not releasing any more info (and by that I mean PAF), then it is entirely up to them. Either way, A CONFIRMED kill and I repeat A CONFIRMED KILL was enough to shatter confidence.

Your correct how the Viper got the Kill, Had there Not been a 2-4 seconds delay Bison kill would have been from a much junior Pilot than NAK. My post was related to the Flanker. Aprt from electronic proofs that we had, we have Visual proofs of the dead burnt out Bird. Status of the Pilots, Their families, pictures of the Burnt WSO.

 

[Safriz]

@Ark_Angel
I would encourage the rest of the folks here as I have in the past - from our perspective Swift Retort was a Day-In-The-Life test for our training and its done.
From a pure PAF perspective - it was nothing special when the variety of scenarios trained for and tools available are taken into account. It is time to move on and focus on whatever else the IAF tries to cook up.


History does repeat itself and much like 71 after 65.. the IAF has licked its wounds and is prepping furiously; it wont be a cake walk next time since the challenges are beyond the PAF but they do impact it - and Pakistanis can only hope to mitigate those impacts

That is correct. Dwelling too much on one days work is unhealthy.
However on the contrary the entire PAF fighter jet buying strategy and overall preparations for decades were based on Swedish doctrine during the height of cold war.
After Soviet Finland war, the Swedes calculated that they cannot stop a forward push from the big bad Russian bear, and will have to retreat as a matter of strategy.
Go hide in the forest and let the Soviets destroy all they could, and then crawl out and attack from behind.
That's why Swedes have small single engine jets with short takeoff and landing distance and quick turnaround time.
PAF had similar ideology about an Indian attack. Hence similar strategy and training for motorway landings and small jets.

But on 27th of February all that concept of Indian air supremacy and a few MKI mowing down entire PAF, came down crashing in a cup of tea.

For those reasons while i agree that we should not underestimate the enemy, but overestimation isn't good either.

 

[Ark_Angel]

@Ark_Angel
I would encourage the rest of the folks here as I have in the past - from our perspective Swift Retort was a Day-In-The-Life test for our training and its done.
From a pure PAF perspective - it was nothing special when the variety of scenarios trained for and tools available are taken into account. It is time to move on and focus on whatever else the IAF tries to cook up.


History does repeat itself and much like 71 after 65.. the IAF has licked its wounds and is prepping furiously; it wont be a cake walk next time since the challenges are beyond the PAF but they do impact it - and Pakistanis can only hope to mitigate those impacts

True. Someone forwarded me the Blog of Kaiser Tufail last June! And what a disaster it was. No offence intended but even after you have been honourably retired there are certian aspects which one shouldn’t make public. There shouldn’t always be a danda to stop one from spilling everything after a cup of coffee with a coursemate or senior and learning about how the battle unfolded. Making public the TTPs employed, the assets used, in a nut shell it shouldn’t have been done. One can always omit certain aspects, or atleast get it vetted from the institutions which are employed to OPSEC. It wasn’t done and for a few moments of publicity spilled how the battle unfolded. There is a realisation that might cost us heavily in the future. Each and every nitty gritty detail that was mentioned, has been picked up by IAF and they are working on correcting their short comings. From SDRs to Meteors, to Jammers, Kaisar Tufails blog made the job of RAW 1000 times easier. His credibility and the level of details spilled made sure what he has written is the truth(95%) of it. One should always avoid such practices. Because there is a simple OPSEC rule drilled into the mind of a military Officer: keep it to yourself!
Let the enemy guess what’s about to come. Never spill your beans. that is the reason I said: ACM Rakesh is working day and night to correct the short comings of his force.
The Biggest advantage that the Rafale brings is not the platform it self. It brings along with it the latest TTPs NATO uses in Multi Spectral Combat! BVR, WVR, EW, Datalink, Sit Awareness the best the Europeans have mastered have been transferred to the IAF. How they will use their new Knowledge base and it’s application will define the outcome of our next air duel.

 

[Raider 21]

True. Someone forwarded me the Blog of Kaiser Tufail last June! And what a disaster it was. No offence intended but even after you have been honourably retired there are certian aspects which one shouldn’t make public. There shouldn’t always be a danda to stop one from spilling everything after a cup of coffee with a coursemate or senior and learning about how the battle unfolded. Making public the TTPs employed, the assets used, in a nut shell it shouldn’t have been done. One can always omit certain aspects, or atleast get it vetted from the institutions which are employed to OPSEC. It wasn’t done and for a few moments of publicity spilled how the battle unfolded. There is a realisation that might cost us heavily in the future. Each and every nitty gritty detail that was mentioned, has been picked up by IAF and they are working on correcting their short comings. From SDRs to Meteors, to Jammers, Kaisar Tufails blog made the job of RAW 1000 times easier. His credibility and the level of details spilled made sure what he has written is the truth(95%) of it. One should always avoid such practices. Because there is a simple OPSEC rule drilled into the mind of a military Officer: keep it to yourself!
Let the enemy guess what’s about to come. Never spill your beans. that is the reason I said: ACM Rakesh is working day and night to correct the short comings of his force.
The Biggest advantage that the Rafale brings is not the platform it self. It brings along with it the latest TTPs NATO uses in Multi Spectral Combat! BVR, WVR, EW, Datalink, Sit Awareness the best the Europeans have mastered have been transferred to the IAF. How they will use their new Knowledge base and it’s application will define the outcome of our next air duel.

Yes KT should have kept his mouth shut and waited until the documentary was released. He writes well, but there was no need to announce most details. Even Shahid Latif stayed quiet.

 

[Longhorn]

On the same level of thought process where IAF/Indian Establishment miscalculated a lot and so believed into some propaganda settled norms about Pakistan, it is time for us to not to fall into same mirage. The new IAF Chief Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria is different than B.S Dhanoa who was only interested for political promotion of Modi and found it all wrong in the end.

R.K.S Bhadauria in the office is already serious about making necessary changes into fighting capability of IAF, upping the game be it in implementing phase and then a serious yet less spoken guy who considers everything into account before making final decisions unlike his predecessor that was only capable to please Modi.

Unless, the new IAF chief tuns out to be or in-case made one like previous pleasing gang; we will have to keep up with challenges and should not let the guard down. We will need to keep up with new dynamics of air warfare and so also by updating ourselves about the adversary for all they have, the capability & the possibilities of IAF.

I would trust the PAF to do their duty with the utmost professionalism and dedication we have come to expect from them.

 

[Dil Pakistan]

As per the info we have IAF Cheif *Bull Sh*T Dhanoa* mislead his political masters About the status of availability of Fighters in IAF fleet.
1. Pre 26 Feb when the plan was presented to CCS regarding Balakot, IAF in its concluding remarks presented a picture where there will be Little to No PAF response due to Certain Edge perceived by IAF in their own war game analysis.
2. IAF relied heavily on input by Israeli security team in Devising tactics for Balakot OP.
3. IAF and Indian Politico Mil Hierarchy created a new phrase in their Military Terminologies known as *The New Norm* which was to replicate the Israeli Tactics over Syria where by SOW weapons will be used to show Mil Superiority over the adversary presumably without inviting response.
4. From what know, from 3rd Party sources, The Current IAF cheif was against Balakot OP. He speaks less and is a thorough professional, gets the job done and was on the left of BS Dhanoa due to his vocal reservations regarding any misadventure.
4. Firing solution to SPICE glide weapons were inserted by Israeli Team themselves not IAF personnel. The resultant off target impact created strains between the Israeli Firm and IAF, results are being seen today HAMMERS have been ordered by IAF for Rafales implicating a complete European Armament for Indian Rafales.
5. IAF was anticipating a response, They were ready, but not as prepared as they should have been, Which lead to a disaster on their side during the Skirmish.
6. Post 27 Feb IAF activity went to almost zero, from what the Langar Gup is BS Dhanoa was given a heavy dressing down by Doval and Indian Leadership opted to use Brahmos as a response, which adds weight to this Theory. However that would have received a response the would have been the Armgageddon.
7. JF-17s proved their Mettle in the combat, Thunder Pilots were itching to get the green light to release their BVRs off the rails, ROEs are ROEs, you violate them your out.
8. It’s always a treat to listen to convo of Abhi and his GC lady Officer. I wish all Pakistanis can hear it one day. However The most entertaining is when the Vipers light up their Radars
And watch the Indian CAP turn and scoot away. Youngsters are youngsters. *Sir in ki Phat gai hai* quipped a lad.
9. Rafales with Metoer Combo has already been catered for. The Balance of Power to Shoot First will remain in the hands of PAF for the foreseeable future and will Only grow at a fraction of the cost, While IAF will continually be ripped by Foreign OEMs.
10. ACM Rakesh is a professional, I would be concerned about his approach to overhaul his airforce. Will keep an eye on how they go about things. His direction is fine, but the current challenge at Ladakh will prove his mettle.

Is the story of SU-30 taken out by PAF on 27th Feb. true?

 

[crankthatskunk]

There was much heated debate within PAF after this as there were seven IAF aircraft that were sitting ducks....but the higher ups didn't give clearance.....shooting them all would have had same effect as that by Rafiqui and Bhati did on the opening engagement of 1965 war.....at least some of IAF fleet would have been grounded.

I know that, ever since Feb 2019 I have mentioned that why Pakistani military leadership didn't allow all 9 kills. That is 2 kills + 7 locks you refer to.

That would have been such a moral boaster for PAF and Pakistan and Indians ego and moral would have nose dived.
I would say it was a huge mistake. We could have had avenged at least the cock up by Nawaz in Kargil, which turns an astonishing victory to retreat. I wouldn't call it a loss, we kicked Indians arses.

 

[Raider 21]

Is the story of SU-30 taken out by PAF on 27th Feb. true?

It is a claim and on their side they said it to be true. Yet they don't have to prove it how the Indian media and IAF portrayed a BVR engagement as a dogfight where their MiG-21 "shot" down an F-16. Showing an AMRAAM wreckage doesn't mean a Viper was shot. High chance that AMRAAM wreckage is from the Su-30MKI that was hit.

 

[Ark_Angel]

Is the story of SU-30 taken out by PAF on 27th Feb. true?

100% true.

 

[SQ8]

@Knuckles @Ark_Angel
The damage is done with Opsec - unfortunately there are always folks jumping the gun whether it is the leaked phone call or excessive details in the article.

The focus should now be on countering what is coming(a matter of “when” and not “if“ so long as the current regime is in charge) which is going to be a much more difficult scenario with the aspects mentioned through training.

Depending upon the timeline, R.K cannot turn around the entirety of the IAF into a crack force but even 150 odd well trained and experienced combat leaders/pilots can make life hell for us or even push us out of our skies.

Which is why I am averse to the excessive celebrations of the 27th. we should not ever develop or let develop within our ranks levels of pride that lead to complacency.

Infact, all we’ve done is added a higher level of difficulty to the true “big one”.
SDRs and Meteors are what we know of, there are plenty of things we too are unaware of and that could get us and unlike them we don’t have deep pockets.

If I sound repetitive it is for the general audience - stop praising your looks in the mirror and try to change the entire nation in general. Be it the PAF or PIA, all are borne from the same lot that is Pakistanis and the general mentality is what will eventually reflect in.

Institutional memory only goes so far in fixing poor national mindset - our neighbor is testament to it.

 

[Safriz]

True. Someone forwarded me the Blog of Kaiser Tufail last June! And what a disaster it was. No offence intended but even after you have been honourably retired there are certian aspects which one shouldn’t make public. There shouldn’t always be a danda to stop one from spilling everything after a cup of coffee with a coursemate or senior and learning about how the battle unfolded. Making public the TTPs employed, the assets used, in a nut shell it shouldn’t have been done. One can always omit certain aspects, or atleast get it vetted from the institutions which are employed to OPSEC. It wasn’t done and for a few moments of publicity spilled how the battle unfolded. There is a realisation that might cost us heavily in the future. Each and every nitty gritty detail that was mentioned, has been picked up by IAF and they are working on correcting their short comings. From SDRs to Meteors, to Jammers, Kaisar Tufails blog made the job of RAW 1000 times easier. His credibility and the level of details spilled made sure what he has written is the truth(95%) of it. One should always avoid such practices. Because there is a simple OPSEC rule drilled into the mind of a military Officer: keep it to yourself!
Let the enemy guess what’s about to come. Never spill your beans. that is the reason I said: ACM Rakesh is working day and night to correct the short comings of his force.
The Biggest advantage that the Rafale brings is not the platform it self. It brings along with it the latest TTPs NATO uses in Multi Spectral Combat! BVR, WVR, EW, Datalink, Sit Awareness the best the Europeans have mastered have been transferred to the IAF. How they will use their new Knowledge base and it’s application will define the outcome of our next air duel.

You must realise how difficult it is not to boast when you are no longer part of the organisation and no longer legally obliged to keep shut.
In 1995 me and my colleagues brought things from Ukraine to Pakistan and 25 years later we still can't boast about it.
It is difficult to keep shut when you are incredibly proud of what you did. But likewise the potential fallout from your boasting outweighs the ego boost you get.
Some people risk it and i don't blame them. Other keep shut .
Personal preference.

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

If I sound repetitive it is for the general audience - stop praising your looks in the mirror and try to change the entire nation in general. Be it the PAF or PIA, all are borne from the same lot that is Pakistanis and the general mentality is what will eventually reflect in.

In this aspect a critical analysis piece from @MastanKhan on this thread will make this discussion wide open for analysis rather than feel good factor.