Featured JF-17 Emerged As The Star of Swift Retort

[The Accountant]

No such thing happened.
Both of the two Mirage 2000s and the two Su-30s were pulled back as they were outnumbered 6:1 (24 vs 4) and new reinforcements were being sent from Punjab, Haryana and even Rajasthan.

U didnt had fighter aircrafts near the conflict area during days of high alert ?

 

[imadul]

There was much heated debate within PAF after this as there were seven IAF aircraft that were sitting ducks....but the higher ups didn't give clearance.....shooting them all would have had same effect as that by Rafiqui and Bhati did on the opening engagement of 1965 war.....at least some of IAF fleet would have been grounded.

Pathetic leadership if they forbid no to shoot locked targets.
And ISPR was boasting we will do this and that. It was Operation Lack of Resolve.

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

I just hope this time whenever engagement happens there is clarity of resolve in completely knocking IAF at least to the point where they no longer can participate in any short intensive conflict. So
1. Strike with such a stunning blow that IAF is rendered useless in confidence, equipment, moral and will to fight. And no cover up no media ploy is able to cover the incompetence of their armed forces..
2. Surprise the enemy with introducing completely new and out of the manual book. They did classic job in surprising the enemy, but if the end result was to avoid war then it was bad strategy on behalf of higher command. Maybe next they be careful showing hands and having said that I hope they went in with 50% of capacity of what they have.
3. Target RAFALE because at this moment that's the parrot which holds the heart of the enemy. They invested in that "Raphale hota" financially and emotionally as well as propaganda tool.
4. Interlink the air operations to political outcome with some productive outcome on ground so that we don't keep wasting resources and no ground gained.
Chinese example is classic but since we don't enjoy such luxury on the our front but still deep operations with either political or economic objectives rather than just moral of enemy forces. The reason is very clear from what we have witnessed since feb 27 , propaganda machine at full display to turn a battle defeat into victory so the moral aspect will take some time when you dealing with this brainwashed nation.
5. Exert pressure in air on ground and at sea what 27th did show us that Indians are unable to tackle complicated and complex operations in one area at this "Moment" then its very hard for them to respond along entire front.
6. Diversify the equipment so Indians keep dealing with or keep guessing and are unable to keep up. Some equipment we can get just to divert the enemy attention or confuse them.
7. Most importantly "This time no need to hold back at all" because you can't give space or time to enemy because it will be occupied quickly.
We wasted many major opportunities
1965
Kargil
Feb 27
In all instances we showed our hand but couldn't initiate a result on ground and all good work well good for moral boosting but not intented Target (liberation of Kashmir) not achieved.
We had clear target in Afghanistan and clarity of mind and look what clarity and urgency can do.
Stalemate should not be next objective but achieve a strategic victory rather than tactical.

 

[The Accountant]

In this aspect a critical analysis piece from @MastanKhan on this thread will make this discussion wide open for analysis rather than feel good factor.

No, most of his analysis dont make sense. However, sometime he raise really good questions. Mostly I lose him when he gets carried away with bashing rather than reasoning.

 

[S A L M A N.]

Although there is insufficient evidence to say that the PAF leadership displayed timidity or cowardliness on Feb 27 (they simply may have done what they did owing to knowledge that we're not privy to yet), the possibility cannot be ruled out.
During the '65 war, formation commanders such as Nosy Haider later blamed the timidity of field commanders and top planners for their failure to destroy more than 25% of the IAF on the ground - the primary component of the PAF's battle plan to establish air superiority - which if implemented would have altered the course of the war. But alas, top leadership 'played it safe' and the fact that AM Nur Khan was just starting with the job as C-in-C did not help despite the fact that he was a bold and fearless leader.
A similar thing could have happened on Feb 27. Or maybe the PAF, being aware of its own shortcomings, thought it better not to provoke the enemy for an aimless fight and throw away the strength that it has managed to build. The consolidation and reequipment of the armed forces has not yet been completed. We can not afford a war yet. It will set us back atleast a decade and all the great work that has been done will be undone.
Imagine if the PN has sunk the Indian sub in international waters. The IN would have sent it's entire P-8I fleet and it's countless ASW assets charging into the Arabian sea. Without complete air superiority over the ocean,our ships (with their inadequate air defences) would have not stood a chance. It would've been a turkey shoot, maybe as bad as 1971.

 

[The Accountant]

1. Pakistan Could Have Technical Edge on Indian Air Force Despite Rafale Jet Deployment: IAF Veteran

10:30 GMT 02.03.2020
by Rishikesh Kumar
New Delhi (Sputnik): On Friday, Indian Air Force (IAF) Chief RKS Bhadauria said the 36 Rafale jets were not the whole solution to the IAF's needs. India signed a $7.8 billion contract with French Dassault Aviation to buy the aircraft in 2019.

Sitting beside Indian Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, Air Force Chief Rakesh Kumar Bhadauria issued a strong warning to the political leadership of India, claiming that the Rafale fighter jet is insufficient to meet the country's defence needs.

IAF veteran Vijainder K Thakur told Sputnik that Rafale is definitely the best aircraft in the IAF's inventory now. However, a determined adversary like the Pakistan Air Force could turn the tables on the IAF by deploying longer-ranged Chinese PL-15 missiles on an updated version of the JF-17 jet.

“The technical advantage gained by the IAF through the acquisition of the Rafale would be transient because it would be based largely on the weapon systems and sensors of the Rafale,” Thakur said.
The IAF's excessive focus on platforms rather than sensors and weapon systems was evident during the Kargil conflict with Pakistan two decades ago. “The IAF fulfilled the expectations only after it made emergency purchases of Laser-Guided Bombs and targeting pods,” Thakur said.

Powered Up JF-17
The Pakistan Air Force’s single engine multirole fighter, the JF-17 manufactured by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation, is due for a major upgrade, similar to the advanced technologies seen on the J-20 stealth fighter, the Chinese newspaper Global Times reported earlier this year.

It is confirmed by the Chinese outlet that the upgraded JF-17 fighter jet will have “an infrared search and track system and a radar cross section reducing ‘pseudo-stealthy’ airframe”.

The JF-17 fighter jet has been also equipping with PL-15 Beyond Visual Range air-to-air missile that has posed serious concern among the US Air Force due to the long range of its missiles.

Herbert J. Carlisle, the then head of the US Air Force’s combat command, was quoted by Flight Global as saying that outmatching the Chinese PL-15 air-to-air missile in particular is an “exceedingly high priority”.
“The PL-15 and the range of that missile, we’ve got to be able to out-stick that missile,” US Air Force’s Command chief had said in 2015.

Lessons From Balakot Strike and Options for India
On February 27 2019, a day after the IAF struck an alleged terror training camp at Balakot, the PAF surprised the IAF with its longer range AMRAAM and better supporting sensor capability.

“IAF allowed itself to be outgunned by focusing on platform acquisitions, rather than weapon system and sensor upgrades. With sufficient military foresight, the IAF could have armed its Su-30MKI with longer range air-to-air missiles acquired from Russia rather than continuing to rely on the lesser ranged missile ordered years ago from Ukraine,” IAF veteran Thakur asserted.
The Indian Air Force ordered a large batch of Russian air-to-air missiles such as R-27, R-73 very shortly after Balakot strike.

Emphasising the importance of indigenous Astra air-to-air missile, Indian Air Force Chief Bhadauria said at a seminar in New Delhi on Friday that when the missile goes on to the Su-30 and MiG-29, that the power of parity and better performance will spread across the air force.

The Indian Air Force will start taking delivery of the Rafale jets in May 2020.
https://sputniknews.com/analysis/20...ce-despite-rafale-jet-deployment-iaf-veteran/
PL15 vs Rafale
View attachment 654068

Picture is photoshop. There is no picture of thunder with PL15 till to date.
The statement of Indian Chief could simply be a threat to government for more funds.

 

[Dazzler]

Indeed. Same as the R-77 BVRAAM missile which brag with engagement range of 180km but at max attitude and against low maneuver aircraft. It real effective range engagement may at only 70-80km

Less than 70km, even that under ideal circumstances. Chinese don't need 77s or 27s anymore as they have far better, accurate options available.

 

[volatile]

What do you call it showing debris of weapon which downed your craft ? Were they all drunken at that time ? Sheer humiliation

 

[untitled]

What do you call it showing debris of weapon which downed your craft ? Were they all drunken at that time ? Sheer humiliation

They were playing one of the cards they could play at the time. They were hoping if they cry just enough, they could once again convince the US to sanction our F16 fleet. That would have been a small victory in itself

 

[crankthatskunk]

@Knuckles @Ark_Angel
The damage is done with Opsec - unfortunately there are always folks jumping the gun whether it is the leaked phone call or excessive details in the article.

The focus should now be on countering what is coming(a matter of “when” and not “if“ so long as the current regime is in charge) which is going to be a much more difficult scenario with the aspects mentioned through training.

Depending upon the timeline, R.K cannot turn around the entirety of the IAF into a crack force but even 150 odd well trained and experienced combat leaders/pilots can make life hell for us or even push us out of our skies.

Which is why I am averse to the excessive celebrations of the 27th. we should not ever develop or let develop within our ranks levels of pride that lead to complacency.

Infact, all we’ve done is added a higher level of difficulty to the true “big one”.
SDRs and Meteors are what we know of, there are plenty of things we too are unaware of and that could get us and unlike them we don’t have deep pockets.

If I sound repetitive it is for the general audience - stop praising your looks in the mirror and try to change the entire nation in general. Be it the PAF or PIA, all are borne from the same lot that is Pakistanis and the general mentality is what will eventually reflect in.

Institutional memory only goes so far in fixing poor national mindset - our neighbor is testament to it.

When you say, when not if.
The war is imminent.
The war already started on 26th February 2019.
What we seeing now is lull in the war. Until India rearms and strike again.
The question, why Pakistan army elites are unaware of it!!
You and others would say, they are , they are making contingency plans. They didn't allowed the shooting down of all 9 locks, because it would have resulted in the war breaking out.

But you yourself said, the war would break out and we should be worried what Indians are buying behind the scene not only the meteor on Rafale.

Well, that's proven that it was a mistake by PA not to go for full retaliation in response to 26th Feb 2019 strike by IAF.

Cowardice is never an answer to a bully. It would come again, better prepared than last.
This is summing up your post.

 

[SQ8]

When you say, when not if.
The war is imminent.
The war already started on 26th February 2019.
What we seeing now is lull in the war. Until India rearms and strike again.
Now is the question. Why Pakistan army elites are unaware of it!!
You and others would say, they are , they are making contingency plans. They didn't allowed the shooting down of all 9 locks, because it would have resulted in the war breaking out.

But you yourself said, the war would break out and we should be worried what Indians are buying behind the scene not only the meteor on Rafale.

Well, that's proven that it was a mistake by PA not to go for full retaliation in response to 26th Feb 2019 strike by IAF.

Cowardice is never an answer to a bully. It would come again, better prepared than last.
This is summing up your post.

It isn’t always a yes or no answer - it’s a house of cards which can tumble with every move and create multiple ripples.

Pakistan and India arent congo and zaire that the geopolitical implications would remain confined to blood diamonds and Africa. The next hour after an incident like Balakot has the red phones from everyone from US to France ringing and wanted to talk to PM or FM; conveying their opinions and interests along with the consequences of going against their “suggestions”. You call Arabs and China - then call political party leaders, bureaucrats, foriegn office consultants, military, finance minister - agencies and all the way down to your favorite ulema for what now.

Then during all those consultations the players - UK, China , US, France and India on their end are talking to each other as well and to you.

Pressure tactics start moving to keep quiet or take some piecemeal statement - PPP gets calls from US consul .. Nawaz gets a call, Maulana gets one and so on.

 

[litman]

What do you call it showing debris of weapon which downed your craft ? Were they all drunken at that time ? Sheer humiliation

indians are in habit of showing the weapons through which their enemies screwed them. pakistani amraam and the chinese iron rods with nails and look at their gloomy faces after getting screwed.

 

[crankthatskunk]

This anchor done two goofs which gone in favour of Pakistan.
This video where he break the news of Su 30 going down. Which later by Lying India Media turned in to F 16 shot down.

And the second one declaring Mig 21 debris as F 16 debris.

Priceless.

 

[litman]

When you say, when not if.
The war is imminent.
The war already started on 26th February 2019.
What we seeing now is lull in the war. Until India rearms and strike again.
The question, why Pakistan army elites are unaware of it!!
You and others would say, they are , they are making contingency plans. They didn't allowed the shooting down of all 9 locks, because it would have resulted in the war breaking out.

But you yourself said, the war would break out and we should be worried what Indians are buying behind the scene not only the meteor on Rafale.

Well, that's proven that it was a mistake by PA not to go for full retaliation in response to 26th Feb 2019 strike by IAF.

Cowardice is never an answer to a bully. It would come again, better prepared than last.
This is summing up your post.

their isnt goint to be a war any time soon between india pak and china. the leaders of all three countries exactly know what will be the consequences of full scale war in the region. even if india gets US backing to go to war with china they wont do it. they will never put their country's safety at stake for US.the economic war and proxy wars will remain continue and at the moment china is succesfully encircling india and india cant do much about it. india cant offer to its neighbors what china can and the world is foreseeing china as the next leading state of the world so they will prefer to be with china rather then india. china also has strong relations with russia so russia wont support india against china. india has isolated itself in the region due to its policy of bullying the neighbors and the recent skirmishes between india and china have also made china to adopt aggressive diplomatic policy against india. india can think of engaging in any conflict with either pak or china. with corona having a free run in india they are losing lives and economy on daily basis. no military can engage in a war when a disease is playing havoc with it s manpower and the entire nation.

 

[crankthatskunk]

It isn’t always a yes or no answer - it’s a house of cards which can tumble with every move and create multiple ripples.

Pakistan and India arent congo and zaire that the geopolitical implications would remain confined to blood diamonds and Africa. The next hour after an incident like Balakot has the red phones from everyone from US to France ringing and wanted to talk to PM or FM; conveying their opinions and interests along with the consequences of going against their “suggestions”. You call Arabs and China - then call political party leaders, bureaucrats, foriegn office consultants, military, finance minister - agencies and all the way down to your favorite ulema for what now.

Then during all those consultations the players - UK, China , US, France and India on their end are talking to each other as well and to you.

Pressure tactics start moving to keep quiet or take some piecemeal statement - PPP gets calls from US consul .. Nawaz gets a call, Maulana gets one and so on.

Well, in the end it comes down to one thing, cowardice.
Thinking too much of consequences and not doing much. India had no such inhibitions when they attack on 26th Feb 2019. So why did Pakistan in retaliation, when they have a good cause to respond!!