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JF-17 comparison with Mirage F1

hj786

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How about a sensible comparison for a change. The F1 is very similar to the JF in some ways.

The Dassault Mirage F1


avmirf1_4.png


Standard air combat configuration, 2 BVRAAM and 2 WVRAAM. If the F1 doesn't need more hardpoints or more BVRAAMs, why does JF?

MirageF1.jpg


4 AAM, 2 drop tanks and 4 bombs (runway busting Durandals?)
 
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Hahah no dude! when u compare a aircraft in the same class you have to look at everything not just look at the pic and say 7 hardpoints yeaaaaaa a pefect match! this f-1 is oldschool aircraft i dont see it comparing to the thunder in all due respect!
 
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Mirage F-1 with latest upgrade or in another words final configuration is comparable to JF-17 block 2 as they both will have same radar, armaments, avionics, etc.. just like a mig-21 with latest upgrades is comparable to F-16 Block 15.
 
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u kidding me....wonder why Indian is dumping all its mig21 and even 23...
 
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Mirage F-1 with latest upgrade or in another words finaly configuration is comparable to JF-17 block 2 as they both will have same radar, armaments, avionics, etc.. just like a mig-21 with latest upgrades is comparable to F-16 Block 15.
OK, I guess you have started an interesting thread (no sarcasm, I am serious). Elaborate a little more on the avionics and armament and which country is planning for such upgrades, any links?
 
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u kidding me....wonder why Indian is dumping all its mig21 and even 23...

Bison is very serious threat to our old F-16 block 15.

OK, I guess you have started an interesting thread (no sarcasm, I am serious). Elaborate a little more on the avionics and armament and which country is planning for such upgrades, any links?


Astrac modernises Morocco's Mirages

By Jean-Michel Guhl
in Paris, France

The 2007 Paris Air Show gave Astrac (Association Sagem Thales pour la Rénovation d'Avions de Combat) — the joint-venture created in November 2005, at the French Ministry of Defence's request, by Thales and Sagem Défense Sécurité (SAFRAN) — an opportunity to show what the new company is all about: high-level all-round upgrade refurbishing of third generation fighters.

Capitalizing on the current Royal Air Forces of Morocco’s program for the modernisation of its entire Mirage F1 fleet (a total of 27 remaining Mirage F1CH and EH), Astrac exhibited a complete offer, including two central computers, SIGMA-type GPS-hybrid navigation systems (both developed by Sagem Défense Sécurité), MICA EM and IR air-to-air missiles provided by MBDA. For this retrofitting solution, Thales is contributing with a RDY-3 (or RC 400) 2D multi-function radar, a Damocles day/night laser designation pod, a PAJ FA type pod for electronic warfare self-protection and a CATS 150 radar Warning Receiver (RWR). The different units interface via a 1553 bus.

For the air-to-air mission, the multi-function/multi-target radar can be used to fire MICA and Magic 2 missiles. To meet air-to-ground mission requirements, Astrac offers Sagem Défense Sécurité’s stand-off AASM air-to-ground modular weapon supported by a mission preparation system by Sagem Défense Sécurité and a debriefing systems from Thales. The weapon can be complemented at will by laser guided weapons using the Damocles laser designation pod.

The Astrac offer, which is compatible with NVGs, also includes a 'zero-zero' ejection seat and a latest-generation glass cockpit MMI with Hands on Thottle and Shift (HOTAS) controls. As an option, the system can also be complemented by a system for deploying anti-ship weapons, such as MBDA’s Exocet AM 39.

Ideal for air forces facing strong budget constraints, the Astrac modernising solution offers a real added value to a fighter-bomber like the Mirage F1, an aircraft which is still in operational with some ten air arms where it provides good service thanks to the reliability of its single Snecma Atar 9K50 turbojet.

Morocco awarded France a contract worth around €350 million (US$420 million) two years ago to overhaul the Moroccan Air Force's mixed fleet of 27 Mirage F1CH/EH fighter aircraft. The contract, signed during a visit by former French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin to Rabat on 26-27 September 2005, involves renovating the airframes and avionic suite of the aircraft delivered to the Sherifian kingdom in the late 1980s by Dassault Aviation. Rabat decided to renovate the aircraft instead of buying surplus US F-16 multi-role fighters offerred at low-coast by the USA. The € 350 million package includes around € 100 million for armament for the renovated Mirage F1s. These will be MICA air-to-air missiles made by MBDA as well as Sagem's new AASM 250 kg rocket bombs. Thales and Sagem had previously vied against one another for the contract but were asked by the French government to combine their efforts in a joint venture, thus Astrac. The Royal Moroccan Air Force Mirage F1s, now dubbed Mirage F1M, represent the most modern modernisation programme ever grafted to this French-designed combat aircraft.

Sold in about 740 copies to eleven different countries, the Mirage F1 is still in operational service today in Ecuador, France, Jordan, Libya, Spain and Morocco. A batch of those once belonging to South Africa (Mirage F1AZ) have meanwhile been sold to Gabon, about a dozen of Iraq's Mirage F1EQs 'given' by Saddam Hussein to Iran while those of Kuwait are stored and those of Qatar sold to Spain. Greece's Elleniki Polemiki Aeroporia's last Mirage F1s were retired two years ago and replaced by Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s, the final batch of which is now being delivered by Dassault-Aviation, thus marking the end of production for the Mirage 2000 too. A likely sale of former French Air Force Mirage F1CTs to Colombia is now in the funnel. No information on this deal is available, although the number of aircraft involved would be around a dozen.

So far, only the Mirage F1s of the Spanish Air Force have been fully modernised by Thales and EADS to an extent certainly not comparable with the Astrac endeavour however. Meanwhile about a dozen long stored Libyan Air Force Mirage F1s are due to be refurbished by Dassault-Aviation. Therefore, the modernisation market for the Mirage F1 is still very open. [Paris-06-25-2007]
 
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i remember , about 10 years back f1 was quite a regular jet in afm...i dont know even if its a great manueverable jet or not. it was an upgraded version of mirage3 interceptor [not multirole]

personally i think its no use to waste money on avionics upgradation of an old/dead horse unless its a multirole fighter of the class of f16.

f1 an old design.. why didnt u start the thread with mirage2000 instead?
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u do remember that we dropped mirage2000 deal infavour of f16s in the 80s.we considered m2k 85%effective as f16.
also we didnt go for f1mirages or even f5s.
note that f1 and mirage2000 age has ended and jf17 has just started with atleast somewhat a better design.
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if we say that jf17 is better than f16a, it should be atleast atpar with or maybe even acceading mirage2000-5 in certain aspects. any ideas?:woot:
 
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The thread topic is "JF-17 comparison with Mirage F1" and I say that JF-17 is far batter then Mirage F1.

The pics you(qsaark) posted I think these all pics are of Mirage 2000-5, which is more advanced then Mirage F1,3,5.
Inida is also having Mirage 2000.
I think Pakistan should buy all 68 Mirage 2000 from United Arab Emirates. This will boost PAF cabilities, coz Miirage2K is some where near to Gripen, Hornet, F16 etc

The bird is beautiful and hopefully can be given to Pakistan on low price.

UAE Mirage 2000 is compareable to.
F-16 Fighting Falcon
F/A-18 Hornet
JAS 39 Gripen
JF-17 Thunder
Mikoyan MiG-29
Mitsubishi F-2

Max takeoff weight
Mirage 2000
7,000 kg (37,500 lb)
JF17
12,700 kg (28,000 lb)

Powerplant
Mirage 2000
Powerplant: 1× SNECMA M53-P2 afterburning turbofan
Dry thrust: 64.3 kN (14,500 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 95.1 kN (21,400 lbf)
JF17
Powerplant:1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan
Dry thrust: 49.4 kN (11,106 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 84.4 kN (18,973 lbf)


Mirage 2000

 
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One little thing, The F-1 was designed in the 60's, Even with modern avionics and an uprated engine. It is still ur daddy's jet.
The F1 was designed on the drawing boards with the 70's and 80's in mind. The JF-17 on a computer with the early 21st century in mind, and flown first on a computer as well. The F1 still has its old hydraulically boosted controls linked to the HOTAS, The JF ditched these for a FBW with hydraulic backup.
So while electronically the F1 may have been updated. Its still structurally a older plane. Which makes you wonder. If electronics was all that is required to bring a plane up to standard. then why do countries keep making newer planes instead of updating their older ones. The simple analogy(not perfect) though is that you can make a muscle car run like today's EVO IX, But even after refurbishment. They body off the muscle car will start to deteriorate faster than the EVO's. It will cost you higher in terms of maintainability. And eventually, there is only so much you can do with a 40 year old airframe. It wasn't designed from the outset with these new developments in mind.At maximum they planned back then for 20 years. Ask the guys who designed the MIG-21, they probably never thought that their airframe would still be flying as a front line fighter after 50 years since the design.(the Ye-5 (predecessor to the Mig-21 & design testbed flew in 1956 based on a 1952 requirement). Hence while continuous updates have improved the basic airframe and avionics greatly. The design itself has its limitations. So unless you do a radical redesign like the South Africans did with the Mirage III in the Atlas cheetah(which has its limitations as well). You are still bounded by the airframe and design which is why newer aircraft are ordered which are custom built as per the requirements for the day. So.. consequently, Comparing the F1 and JF17 is like comparing a new sports car built with today's design philosophy and one built in your father's teenage years(unless you are under 18, which makes it your grandfather's thirty's or late twenties). No matter how updated, the concept is generations apart and in a close in knife fight or even BVR, chances are even..for now. But when its time to go back to the hanger. The People on the F1 are still going to be working long after the JF guys have finished and gone home.
 
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Mirage F-1 airframe is based upon 1970’s technology which is now outdated. F-1 was an attempt by Dassault to revert back to swept wing after their successful delta wing venture with the Mirage III, VI & V series.

When compared to Mirage III, F-1 was far superior especially with its Cryno IVM radar (look down/shoot down) and the powerful Atar 9K-50 engine. Despite being mated with M-53 engine, Mirage F-1 lost out to F-16 in a NATO competition.

Besides, F-1 is more of a traditional swept wing design and unlike F-16, no matter what, it would not turn into a potent machine such as F-16 block 60 or be able to compete with Mig 29 K. Its claim to fame; in addition to sinking unarmed Iranian tankers; is sinking friendly US frigate USS Stark and downing one Iranian f-14.

IMO only aspect of F-1 where it is superior to Jf-17 is the maximum speed, which is Mach 2.3. (must be due to highly improved air intake) whereas JF-17 is limited to mach 1.6. Thrust to weight ratio at around 0.65 with Atar 9K-50 (would improve to 0.9 with M-53) is not as good as that of Jf-17. Additionally, since we are planning to induct some 250 Thunders, it is hardly worthwhile to look at 70’s technology plane in 2010 battlefield.

IMO only possible use in Pakistan scenario could be in anti ship role armed with latest version of Exocet coupled with P-3C’s replacing current Mirage III squadron.
 
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The thread topic is "JF-17 comparison with Mirage F1" and I say that JF-17 is far batter then Mirage F1.

The pics you(qsaark) posted I think these all pics are of Mirage 2000-5, which is more advanced then Mirage F1,3,5.
All the pictures I have posted are of Mirage F-1.
 
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