JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[Pakistani Fighter]

That maybe true, but in the trans sonic flight patterns where most encounters will happen, if on the merge as soon as the M2 turns it will bleed energy due to the same design characteristics. So tactics will dictate what happens in a patrticular encounter. There will now be additional factors like AWACS, EW, and other factors to consider. The advantage will be minimal in the BVR range and there also the range of the SD10 exceeds the MICA. I do not take any credit away from the French avionics and missiles but I think the Chinese have caught up and surpassed them. The M2Ks remain a very potent platform but they have lagged behind in the last encounter. If IAF adopts a similar strategy of using them for A2G roles like the M3/5s then they will definitely perform well, as their flight characteristics suit that sort of role.


But is it not true that the Delta designs are only good for the straight and hi run. On lo and slow they lose out to Non Delta conventional designs. Was this not the reason for incorporating

Modern day fighters do not rely on speed anymore. This is not a race .Speed may have its advantages in certain profiles but very few.
A

Mirage 2Ks failed against Thunders on 27th Feb

 

[Armchair]

That maybe true, but in the trans sonic flight patterns where most encounters will happen, if on the merge as soon as the M2 turns it will bleed energy due to the same design characteristics. So tactics will dictate what happens in a patrticular encounter. There will now be additional factors like AWACS, EW, and other factors to consider. The advantage will be minimal in the BVR range and there also the range of the SD10 exceeds the MICA. I do not take any credit away from the French avionics and missiles but I think the Chinese have caught up and surpassed them. The M2Ks remain a very potent platform but they have lagged behind in the last encounter. If IAF adopts a similar strategy of using them for A2G roles like the M3/5s then they will definitely perform well, as their flight characteristics suit that sort of role.


But is it not true that the Delta designs are only good for the straight and hi run. On lo and slow they lose out to Non Delta conventional designs. Was this not the reason for incorporating

Modern day fighters do not rely on speed anymore. This is not a race .Speed may have its advantages in certain profiles but very few.
A

Good points. In the end, each aircraft will have to fight from its own advantage. M-2000 design remains a masterpiece of aeronautical engineering.

If one were flying it, they would choose to stay high and fast, and lob Meteors. Then, using superior ITR, get first shot with WVR MICA.

Post-merge, they are toast against the F-16 or JF-17. But pre-merge, they would have a serious advantage.

Now, of course whether IAF is up to scratch in integrating Meteor with it, and whether they can effectively plan and execute missions is open to question. But the capability remains, latent but there.

hi-hi meteor lobbing and ITR enabled pre-merge Mica-IR, means they get the first shot, and they get to dictate the engagement.

This may be why the PAF was more worried about the M-2000 than the FLANKER, as documented by a USAF officer.

 

[araz]

Good points. In the end, each aircraft will have to fight from its own advantage. M-2000 design remains a masterpiece of aeronautical engineering.

If one were flying it, they would choose to stay high and fast, and lob Meteors. Then, using superior ITR, get first shot with WVR MICA.

Post-merge, they are toast against the F-16 or JF-17. But pre-merge, they would have a serious advantage.

Now, of course whether IAF is up to scratch in integrating Meteor with it, and whether they can effectively plan and execute missions is open to question. But the capability remains, latent but there.

hi-hi meteor lobbing and ITR enabled pre-merge Mica-IR, means they get the first shot, and they get to dictate the engagement.

This may be why the PAF was more worried about the M-2000 than the FLANKER, as documented by a USAF officer.

It is the maturity of the French avionics suite which makes the M2K a potential problem. As you have alluded in your post the M2ks of IAF are not currently integrated with the Meteor. With the PL15 integrated PAF retains an advantage. if in future we can get 120 D and Aim 9 X ( increasingly unlikely) then PAF will again wrest advantage away from the IAF. LD10 may yet bring some parity back in the WVR field.
A

 

[The Eagle]

If you spoke to someone who has no relationship to the program their news may be 4 months old

Chief, I remember when Alan Warnes reported the choice being made about AESA and PAF is evaluating or further testing before making a final decision. These snags & such report would have mattered 6 to 7 months ago. Apparently, made it public but too late.

 

[denel]

Mirage 2Ks failed against Thunders on 27th Feb

hold on. in what respect?

 

[Armchair]

hold on. in what respect?

They were jammed to an extent that they ran away from the fight. To add insult to injury, they were jammed by JF-17s.

 

[Akh1112]

They were jammed to an extent that they ran away from the fight. To add insult to injury, they were jammed by JF-17s.

You know this how?

hold on. in what respect?

They came under EW suppression from our falcon 20's, causing their radars and stuff to go all funky, i don't know where this claim of JF-17's jamming them has came from.

 

[Armchair]

I doubt JF-17 block III can have that many snags.
Its an incremental upgrade of an existing and in use system with nothing too new or too radical.
Its not F-35 where everything was new and untested.

Block 3 is probably not as incremental as we are led to believe. Here is why I think so:

1. JF-17 was initially a stable design. Block III is likely to be an unstable design (like the F-16). This means thre will be basically a completely new FCS.

2. AESA radar is likely to be immature and attempting to combine air cooling, solid state cooling and liquid cooling. Far more than the technical aspect, it is ironing out the endless coding that will be difficult

3. Same as point 2 but related to sensor fusion and EW - a lot of coding can go wrong.

However, I do believe the Block III will be on time and we will all be surprised with perhaps 24/25 new aircraft in Late October / November.

@airomerix said that people aren't allowed to go in the production area due to COVID 19, meaning workers are working there, meaning production is taking place. JF-17s (and all modern aircraft) are built in batches, meaning if they are building 1, they are likely building a whole batch. Last known batch capacity is 24/25.

JF-17s are supposed to take a year to get produced in that number. We know production started in November, meaning by October this year, batch is supposed to be complete.

And viola, there we have it. Simple logic and reason gives us the right Occam's razor result.

 

[The Raven]

Block 3 is probably not as incremental as we are led to believe. Here is why I think so:

1. JF-17 was initially a stable design. Block III is likely to be an unstable design (like the F-16). This means thre will be basically a completely new FCS.

2. AESA radar is likely to be immature and attempting to combine air cooling, solid state cooling and liquid cooling. Far more than the technical aspect, it is ironing out the endless coding that will be difficult

3. Same as point 2 but related to sensor fusion and EW - a lot of coding can go wrong.

However, I do believe the Block III will be on time and we will all be surprised with perhaps 24/25 new aircraft in Late October / November.

@airomerix said that people aren't allowed to go in the production area due to COVID 19, meaning workers are working there, meaning production is taking place. JF-17s (and all modern aircraft) are built in batches, meaning if they are building 1, they are likely building a whole batch. Last known batch capacity is 24/25.

JF-17s are supposed to take a year to get produced in that number. We know production started in November, meaning by October this year, batch is supposed to be complete.

And viola, there we have it. Simple logic and reason gives us the right Occam's razor result.

Complete bollocks. There's no indication the JF-17 has shifted from a statically stable design to inherently unstable. There is now an all digital quaduplex FCS in all three axis, but that has nothing to with making it an unstable design. The first flight of the Block III took place in December last year, it needs time to test and validate the prototype before production can begin You mention all the problems with the radar and EW systems, but still expect 25 airframes to be completed within a year of its first flight?! You wouldn't know how to apply Occam's razor even it bit you.

At the most, we could expect 2 airframes this year, but even those might be delayed due to Covid. This is according to the ACM reported earlier this year...

https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2...ter-systems-on-upgraded-jet-for-pakistan.html

Aviation International News quoted the chief of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex as saying "Production of subassemblies has already started for the first two 50 Block 3 aircraft, to be assembled next year, and will be followed by another 12 in 2021, 2022, 2023, and 2024."

 

[denel]

They were jammed to an extent that they ran away from the fight. To add insult to injury, they were jammed by JF-17s.

Not true.... Falcon was being used.

 

[SQ8]

Not true.... Falcon was being used.

Partially correct - The M2ks ran because they saw a lost fight because of a lack of training to deal with outnumbered situations.

The JF-17s were used to Jam ADGE assets on the ground.

 

[Nomad40]

Block 3 is probably not as incremental as we are led to believe. Here is why I think so:

1. JF-17 was initially a stable design. Block III is likely to be an unstable design (like the F-16). This means thre will be basically a completely new FCS.

2. AESA radar is likely to be immature and attempting to combine air cooling, solid state cooling and liquid cooling. Far more than the technical aspect, it is ironing out the endless coding that will be difficult

3. Same as point 2 but related to sensor fusion and EW - a lot of coding can go wrong.

However, I do believe the Block III will be on time and we will all be surprised with perhaps 24/25 new aircraft in Late October / November.

@airomerix said that people aren't allowed to go in the production area due to COVID 19, meaning workers are working there, meaning production is taking place. JF-17s (and all modern aircraft) are built in batches, meaning if they are building 1, they are likely building a whole batch. Last known batch capacity is 24/25.

JF-17s are supposed to take a year to get produced in that number. We know production started in November, meaning by October this year, batch is supposed to be complete.


Where are you getting information about the design?

And viola, there we have it. Simple logic and reason gives us the right Occam's razor result.

 

[LKJ86]

1. JF-17 was initially a stable design. Block III is likely to be an unstable design (like the F-16). This means thre will be basically a completely new FCS.

JF-17 is an unstable design from the beginning.

 

[TheTallGuy]

What are the basic goals of Block 3
1. it has same air-frame. a bit more composites ....lighter but same
2. it has has same RD93/RD93MA (I editing this post after below article which provides details that RD93MA is not even in production)
3. It has now Fly by light
4.Newer avionics and ESM/ECM
5. Newer radar which no body has seen..Air Cooled KLJ-7 AESA (Possible issue of delay)
6. Once a new radar is operational/ready to us (i dont know but i hope it does not become Grifo M3 type situation where it took 4 years to get it fully operational as per specs)
7. To have a viable platform to fully "please note FULLY" utillise the PL15E envelope.

what else i am missing....??

@airomerix said that people aren't allowed to go in the production area due to COVID 19, meaning workers are working there, meaning production is taking place.

My dear, he was talking about KAMRA not chengdu.

 

[Evora]

RD-93MA Engine, to Power Pakistan JF-17 Block III Jets, Enters Thermal Chamber Tests

• Our Bureau
  
• 01:58 PM, July 8, 2020
  
• 472

RD-93MA engine (for JF-17 Jet) Undergoing Tests
A new engine for the Pakistani JF-17 fighter jet, dubbed RD-93MA being developed by Russia’s United Engine Corporation (UEC)-Klimov has entered thermal chamber tests to confirm high-speed characteristics in simulated flight conditions.

The RD-93MA has been specifically developed to power single engine light fighter jets. It is an upgrade of the RD-93 engine which currently powers the Pakistani JF-17/Chinese Chengdu FC-1 single engine fighter jets.

With the successful completion of the thermal chamber test stage, it will be possible to proceed to flight design tests. A set of tests in the TsIAM large thermal pressure chamber will be held as part of the experimental design work on the RD-93MA, a UEC statement said today.

During the tests, the engine will simulate conditions as close as possible to actual flight. Here, the BARK-93MA, the automatic control system of the engine, designed and manufactured at UEC-Klimov, will also be put to test.

The thrust of the RD-93MA is expected to 9300 Kgf compared to 8300 kgf of the RD-93, a significant bump-up in power which will help the JF-17/FC-1 to carry more armaments and fly at a higher speed (this information is not from UEC but earlier published sources).

“The RD-93MA engine is distinguished by improved operational characteristics, increased thermodynamic parameters, a larger fan and an upgraded automatic power plant control system. The main engine parameters are also enhanced- the assigned resource and thrust, an emergency engine start mode is provided, and the possibility of emergency fuel drain is realized.” the statement said.

JF-17 Thunder Aircraft of Pakistan Air Force
“All this is due to the specifics associated with the possible use of the power plant on a single-engine aircraft, which entails additional safety requirements,” the statement added leaving no doubt as to its potential applications for an foreign customer as Russia does not possess a single-engine fighter jet.

“The start of testing was preceded by a long preparatory phase. During 2018-2019 design documentation was handed over to manufacturing plants, production was organized in a new cooperation structure, engine models of the RD-93MA were developed and a new engine "harness" was manufactured. In addition, tests of the VK-100-1MK turbo-starter in the TsIAM heat chamber according to confirmation of high-altitude launch were conducted. Prototypes of the BARK-93MA (automatic engine control system) were made and much more,” the statement said.

The JF-17 block III, a highly advanced version of the JF-17 Block II, was test flown for the first time at the start of this year. Besides the engine, the key upgrade is an AESA- Active electronically scanning array- radar which has already been selected from a Chinese manufacturer.

Earlier reports said the RD-93MA engine will be directly sold to Pakistan. However, sources told defenseworld.net that the engine upgrade work is under contract from a Chinese company for which over 100 such engines is to be manufactured.

The engine is expected to enter fight test mode towards the end of the year which means the JF-17 Block III would enter flight tests with the RD-93MA engine sometime in 2021-22 at the earliest.