JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[syed_yusuf]

BLK 3 was always planned to firm a squadron by 2021 end while in 2020 , there will 2 BLK 3 to be fully produced at PAC and there is no delay there

What I need to know is what is the plan to upgrade BLK 1and 2 to BLK 3

 

[PakShaheen79]

Listen to it man. He's saying that the block 3 induction is being delayed...

These delay theories are stemming from the fact that CAC/PAC have shrouded the project in strict secrecy. It has intensified after COVID-19 situation though Chinese industries are working like they would do before the pandemic. People needs to be patient. Military projects are not simplistic. Block-III is a major change and departure from many legacy systems to latest one. So integration must be taking time. We still have 6 months to see first 2 BlockIIIs in PAC. Let's keep fingers crossed.

 

[Thorough Pro]

a quick peek into Thunders humble beginnings will highlight the very important concept of "delinking" the fuselage development from the avionics, that concept neither died back then nor was forgotten . . .

 

[jedijedi]

If you read my post again I have alluded to the same. Not only can Pakistan currently not produce a jet engine, given the economy of scales involved it is probably better to enter into joint ventures to produce an engine to be used in multiple products.
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Military doctrine is a complex subject and the defense procurement direction countries choose may also vary like the wind as strategic relations change. Please do not take this following argument too literally as it is meant to give a reality check to unrealistic fantasies!
Countries with large air forces like Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or Turkey may have a way better chance of achieving economies of scale purely in the fiscal domain compared to most western countries due to the hundreds of engines each country's air force burns through in a decade. EU air forces combined probably barely manage to field as many jet fighters as these Muslim majority countries combined but EU has multiple successful Engine programs.
They key here is scientific scholarship and intellectual property base needed to start such a program, or lack thereof in Muslim majority countries save for maybe Turkey which may just be able to produce a working prototype to put on a test bed. We all know Turkey achieved the industrial prowess by aligning with the west and working hard rather than making sheikh chilli dreams like many of us hyper-patriots do (and i include myself). Other countries in the list (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt) may just may just show up at the end of the development cycle of such an Engine project with looks similar to how we looked standing behind our woefully crude final year projects in our undergraduate programs where we knew we did nothing of note. These countries may not even end up repeating a "Kaveri". Jazba doesn't build a single crystal fin on a Jet Engine, hard work/IP/Scientific Scholarship does and that is why Israel can probably build a better jet engine than OIC countries combined and in half the time.

Yes producing top of the line jet engine is indeed right at the pinnacle of engineering. An engine that can enable the jet to have super cruise and has very high thrust to weight ratio is indeed beyond the engineering capabilities of Pakistan and majority of the countries of the world.

That being said the technology behind jet engines isn't new nor is the theory behind it some outworldly magic science. The Germans made the jet engine back in 1945. I did my undergrad in mechanical and we were taught at the theoretical level every single aspect of it.

To produce a rudimentary engine as a proof of concept shouldn't be beyond the capacity of Pakistani engineers (not saying that engine would be good enough to put in a jet). It would however require time and human capital with plenty of funding. This we don't have. Once the initial proof of concept is made it can be incrementally improved

There are dozens of YouTube videos of people making basic functioning jet engines in their backyards or garages.

That may be a very crude example but I admire your enthusiasm. Just to throw some perspective, hardly anyone in Pakistan is even trying that open source hobby craft jet engine you mentioned was available on YT as a DIY project. We cannot achieve what we never try in the first place. China started reverse engineering the Mig 21 and ended up with J7/F7. If you look at its development history, China spent decades improving the engines incrementally and due to the fact that they were willing to accept (or their circumstances allowed them to accept) mediocre and less than stellar results, they could improve to a point where they are now nearing the Engine building know how of Russia. Eurofighter didn't meet all the requirements of all the stakeholders, but the synergy of working together helped European industry as a whole.
To sum it up, aerospace prowess requires decades of investment and not months or years. We cannot and should not harbor fantasies of developing an engine for JF17 B3 or B7 for that matter unless we have a national focus on educating our youth and empowering them with the necessary tools and IP coupled with bringing defense industry out of its hard egg shell into the private domain. JF17 has made stunning progress in the limited time and resources afforded to the program, however if Pakistan is not to waste this progress and go much beyond Block 3, base must be laid for the next generation of scientists, engineers and aviators by developing a culture of real industry and real science.

 

[The Raven]

a quick peek into Thunders humble beginnings will highlight the very important concept of "delinking" the fuselage development from the avionics, that concept neither died back then nor was forgotten . . .

Yes! The late, great ACM Mushaf Ali Mir initiated this concept, allowing the JF-17 to be a modular platform which would allow successive upgrades of its avionics and weapons, as demonstrated by the Block-III and potential upgrade of Block-I/II aircraft to Block-III spec. I've been repeating this but it's overlooked and forgotten by many on here.

 

[Armchair]

However, Liyang company did not abandon WS-13 in this regard, and continued to improve and increase the engine’s thrust. Liyang company believed that JF-17 Block-III fighters would undergo major changes, and will use new equipment such as source phased array radar and integrated electronic warfare systems. And the weight of the aircraft would definitely increase significantly compared to the first and second batches. So the need for a larger thrust engine is an opportunity for WS-13 engine.

Liyang company decided to improve the thrust of the WS-13 engine as a transition for FC-31 fighter. The WS-13IPE thrust- enhanced engine adopts a relatively conservative scheme and retains the original four-stage fan, but the blades are swept forward to delay the airflow separation. This increases the fan speed and allows the engine to take in more air, thereby increasing the engine thrust.

After the improvement, the thrust of WS-13IPE engine could be over 9 tons, which can be used for JF-17 Block-III and can also meet the initial needs of JC-31 stealth fighters, especially if JC-31 is chosen as the carrier-based fighter, which would need engines with a higher thrust to carry its increased weight.

https://www.china-arms.com/2020/01/ws-13ipe-for-fc-31/

 

[araz]

However, Liyang company did not abandon WS-13 in this regard, and continued to improve and increase the engine’s thrust. Liyang company believed that JF-17 Block-III fighters would undergo major changes, and will use new equipment such as source phased array radar and integrated electronic warfare systems. And the weight of the aircraft would definitely increase significantly compared to the first and second batches. So the need for a larger thrust engine is an opportunity for WS-13 engine.

Liyang company decided to improve the thrust of the WS-13 engine as a transition for FC-31 fighter. The WS-13IPE thrust- enhanced engine adopts a relatively conservative scheme and retains the original four-stage fan, but the blades are swept forward to delay the airflow separation. This increases the fan speed and allows the engine to take in more air, thereby increasing the engine thrust.

After the improvement, the thrust of WS-13IPE engine could be over 9 tons, which can be used for JF-17 Block-III and can also meet the initial needs of JC-31 stealth fighters, especially if JC-31 is chosen as the carrier-based fighter, which would need engines with a higher thrust to carry its increased weight.

https://www.china-arms.com/2020/01/ws-13ipe-for-fc-31/

I think more than the thrust the emphasis is on the maturity of the engine. A crash at this stage will cause a lot of issues with the reliability of the platform and irreparably harm the reputation . As I said PAF will not put the money down till they are fully assured that the engine is reliable and that would require long term testing.I bet you anything the Red bear will come out with a more powerful engine in the interim. at 2.5 million a pop with a projected demand of 500 and climbing it is 1.25 billion one is talking about which is reasonable business by any stretch of imagination. Also worth mentioning is the fact that setting up infrastructure and repair facilities for WS13 when we have just recently set up overhaul facilities for RD93 is an additional headache. The Chinese advertisement campaign apart PAF will look after its own interests.

 

[Armchair]

I think more than the thrust the emphasis is on the maturity of the engine. A crash at this stage will cause a lot of issues with the reliability of the platform and irreparably harm the reputation . As I said PAF will not put the money down till they are fully assured that the engine is reliable and that would require long term testing.I bet you anything the Red bear will come out with a more powerful engine in the interim. at 2.5 million a pop with a projected demand of 500 and climbing it is 1.25 billion one is talking about which is reasonable business by any stretch of imagination. Also worth mentioning is the fact that setting up infrastructure and repair facilities for WS13 when we have just recently set up overhaul facilities for RD93 is an additional headache. The Chinese advertisement campaign apart PAF will look after its own interests.

I just posted an article but yes, I agree with you, reliability is more important with engines. Unfortunately I have no way to verify if they are as reliable as the RD-93s.

 

[araz]

I just posted an article but yes, I agree with you, reliability is more important with engines. Unfortunately I have no way to verify if they are as reliable as the RD-93s.

unfortunately at this moment in time not even the Chinese can be 100% sure. I have immense respect for the developments that the Chinese brothers have made, but Engine tech is probably still 5 years or so form acceptable levels of maturity. One thing I can say is once they cross that threshold, there will be no stopping them. Best of luck to them.
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[aliyusuf]

However, Liyang company did not abandon WS-13 in this regard, and continued to improve and increase the engine’s thrust. Liyang company believed that JF-17 Block-III fighters would undergo major changes, and will use new equipment such as source phased array radar and integrated electronic warfare systems. And the weight of the aircraft would definitely increase significantly compared to the first and second batches. So the need for a larger thrust engine is an opportunity for WS-13 engine.

Liyang company decided to improve the thrust of the WS-13 engine as a transition for FC-31 fighter. The WS-13IPE thrust- enhanced engine adopts a relatively conservative scheme and retains the original four-stage fan, but the blades are swept forward to delay the airflow separation. This increases the fan speed and allows the engine to take in more air, thereby increasing the engine thrust.

After the improvement, the thrust of WS-13IPE engine could be over 9 tons, which can be used for JF-17 Block-III and can also meet the initial needs of JC-31 stealth fighters, especially if JC-31 is chosen as the carrier-based fighter, which would need engines with a higher thrust to carry its increased weight.

https://www.china-arms.com/2020/01/ws-13ipe-for-fc-31/

More than thrust, if I remember correctly, it was the spool time i.e time taken to achieve the desired thrust. If that has been resolved then it may be on track to be installed.

 

[ARMalik]

Unconfirmed reports of PAF selecting RD-93M engine for Block-3 as PAF is happy with RD engines, and doesn't want to go WS-13 engine path.

 

[aliyusuf]

Unconfirmed reports of PAF selecting RD-93M engine for Block-3 as PAF is happy with RD engines, and doesn't want to go WS-13 engine path.

Is the RD-93M the same version of the engine that has been so far installed on the JF-17 Block-I & II or different?

 

[ARMalik]

Is the RD-93M the same version of the engine that has been so far installed on the JF-17 Block-I & II or different?

Blocks 1 & 2 use RD-93. The RD-93M apparently provides better trust to weight ratio. Don't know what sort of impact better trust to weight would have on engine overhaul and service hours.

 

[araz]

Is the RD-93M the same version of the engine that has been so far installed on the JF-17 Block-I & II or different?

There have been inhouse developments with changes in one of the low pressure turbines resulting in better performance and much less smoke(reported by @messiach). There was also a reported change in fuel mixture which helped with lessening smoke. Now apparently FADEC has been added although not confirmed but widely rumored. WS13 was never in competition as PAF had already set direction with establishment of in house repair and over haul facilities for RD93 series.
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[aliyusuf]

There have been inhouse developments with changes in one of the low pressure turbines resulting in better performance and much less smoke(reported by @messiach). There was also a reported change in fuel mixture which helped with lessening smoke. Now apparently FADEC has been added although not confirmed but widely rumored. WS13 was never in competition as PAF had already set direction with establishment of in house repair and over haul facilities for RD93 series.
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Thank you for the update.