JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[ziaulislam]

Lol Im not hi jacking the thread and its all normal language .You can ignore the post and continue to comment .(I will ignore you after this ) .Cheers

Dont worry even.. if i comment my posts will get deleted and i will get warnings ..pretty usual for me

 

[araz]

.

Please report post rather than responding. It causes admin difficulties in determining who should be reprimanded if both parties are mudslinging.
The issue of US engines is one of sanctions which will forever hang on our head . What we should be looking at is progressively move over to minor parts manufacturing to full indigenous engine provision for our fighters. This may need collaboration from like minded countries like Turkey/ Ukraine/ China to name a few.

Conversely, if we build an economy in the $700-900 billion range, and that too with a healthy tax-to-GDP ratio and fiscal budget, we can buy whatever we want. Of course, I'd hope that whatever smarts let to a great economy will translate over into our defence industry too, but the purchasing power stands all the same.

Hi Bilal
While I don't have any disagreement with your post but buying off the shelf will increasingly become a liability as IAF is finding out after having procured 36 Rafales for 7-8 billions. So to me the better thing is to have a robust economy based on agriculture as well as industrial output and a lot of dual purpose industrial setup which will then give money from the commercial side while it is reinvested in the defence side.
A

First convince USA to release engines for T-129

Brilliant! made my day. Big power houses mostly US are now actively killing off competition. So it is alright to produce a fighter for indigenous use because you are still buying from them, but not OK to sell it on for making money except in case of your loved ones (you can fill in the blanks here). Turkey and T129 is a very good example. I would love to see the day when Turkey breaks those shackles but am vary that a lot of harm will be done before they do. My best wishes to my Turk brothers
A

 

[Shabi1]

For the keyboard strategists.

Making a engine takes twice as long and twice as expensive as a aircraft. So buying one that is already available is less risky and more financially viable. You only make a new engine for your aircraft if there isn't one meeting your needs or no one is selling you one. Several aircraft manufacturers use engines made by other countries and if their volumes are right get license production rights.

There is nothing wrong with the RD-93 and it's still being improved with engine life as well as thrust is supposed to be better for upcoming variants. Pakistan when it started JF-17 was under embargo from US and being sanction proof was one of the goals so GE-404/414 which are their equivalent engines in this class were never considered. And even if available these were already selected for LCA so sharing supplier with your arch foe something that should be avoided.


Also for proponents of off the shelf buying, Egyptions are spending like crazy these days ignoring local infrastructure, seems like a recipe for disaster couple of years down the line, lets see how that turns out for them. As buying is the easy part maintaining is a whole different thing.

There should be a balancing act.

 

[volatile]

Engine manufacturing is the most complex form of technology ,You have to have Mechanics ,Instrumentation most importantly metallurgy and material processes work out ,I dont see Pakistan making any jet engine rest assure even car engine the way our priorities are for the last 70 years . Best bet is hope for China to work out engine issues of WS series which according to sources still under maturity .Till the time proven RD series can be intermediate solution just like F404 engine

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi Bilal
While I don't have any disagreement with your post but buying off the shelf will increasingly become a liability as IAF is finding out after having procured 36 Rafales for 7-8 billions. So to me the better thing is to have a robust economy based on agriculture as well as industrial output and a lot of dual purpose industrial setup which will then give money from the commercial side while it is reinvested in the defence side.
A

I am increasingly seeing solutions on the forum that don't address the problems faced by Pakistan. There is a more general discussion needed on what constitutes power, and then we can discuss how Pakistan can achieve it. There are facts that are missing from the collective thought process here.

 

[Armchair]

As @messiach has always said - it is critically important for Pakistan to develop engines.

 

[denel]

For the keyboard strategists.

Making a engine takes twice as long and twice as expensive as a aircraft. So buying one that is already available is less risky and more financially viable. You only make a new engine for your aircraft if there isn't one meeting your needs or no one is selling you one. Several aircraft manufacturers use engines made by other countries and if their volumes are right get license production rights.

There is nothing wrong with the RD-93 and it's still being improved with engine life as well as thrust is supposed to be better for upcoming variants. Pakistan when it started JF-17 was under embargo from US and being sanction proof was one of the goals so GE-404/414 which are their equivalent engines in this class were never considered. And even if available these were already selected for LCA so sharing supplier with your arch foe something that should be avoided.


Also for proponents of off the shelf buying, Egyptions are spending like crazy these days ignoring local infrastructure, seems like a recipe for disaster couple of years down the line, lets see how that turns out for them. As buying is the easy part maintaining is a whole different thing.

There should be a balancing act.

First, start by getting a licence to build the engines and lay the infrastructure; there is a lot that goes into engine design across multiple spectrum of fields; at present, none of this is present in Pak. Doing engine maintenance does not mean you can build an engine - look at the chinese even they have struggled despite all the best available expertise on their side.

In as far as Egyptians are concerned, they are a lost cause. Let them first take 80% of their poverty stricken population above to $1/day living first; if just bread subsidy is removed, they will go hungry. They are purely being bankrolled by GCC masters. That is all. It is condemned to remain a pharonic state in different guises and general population has no meaning.

Please report post rather than responding. It causes admin difficulties in determining who should be reprimanded if both parties are mudslinging.
The issue of US engines is one of sanctions which will forever hang on our head . What we should be looking at is progressively move over to minor parts manufacturing to full indigenous engine provision for our fighters. This may need collaboration from like minded countries like Turkey/ Ukraine/ China to name a few.


Hi Bilal
While I don't have any disagreement with your post but buying off the shelf will increasingly become a liability as IAF is finding out after having procured 36 Rafales for 7-8 billions. So to me the better thing is to have a robust economy based on agriculture as well as industrial output and a lot of dual purpose industrial setup which will then give money from the commercial side while it is reinvested in the defence side.
A


Brilliant! made my day. Big power houses mostly US are now actively killing off competition. So it is alright to produce a fighter for indigenous use because you are still buying from them, but not OK to sell it on for making money except in case of your loved ones (you can fill in the blanks here). Turkey and T129 is a very good example. I would love to see the day when Turkey breaks those shackles but am vary that a lot of harm will be done before they do. My best wishes to my Turk brothers
A

You made the correct point. This is exactly what happened to our rooivalk program; when we were bidding to supply Turkey in mid 90s' with this helo; the americans and Eu stepped in to choke the program. Turkey is finding itself in same boat right now as we did.

 

[Armchair]

First, start by getting a licence to build the engines and lay the infrastructure; there is a lot that goes into engine design across multiple spectrum of fields; at present, none of this is present in Pak. Doing engine maintenance does not mean you can build an engine - look at the chinese even they have struggled despite all the best available expertise on their side.

In as far as Egyptians are concerned, they are a lost cause. Let them first take 80% of their poverty stricken population above to $1/day living first; if just bread subsidy is removed, they will go hungry. They are purely being bankrolled by GCC masters. That is all. It is condemned to remain a pharonic state in different guises and general population has no meaning.


You made the correct point. This is exactly what happened to our rooivalk program; when we were bidding to supply Turkey in mid 90s' with this helo; the americans and Eu stepped in to choke the program. Turkey is finding itself in same boat right now as we did.

Denel, what are your thoughts on Pak taking an Elon Musk like route of developing an engine with more basic material (like steel and aluminum alloy). This could create a lower thrust version of a base engine (like the RD-93 or the WS-13 or WS-xx).

With the kind of rapid prototyping used by Musk, that developmental methodology could create a mature and cheap engine for Pakistan. Thoughts?

 

[denel]

Denel, what are your thoughts on Pak taking an Elon Musk like route of developing an engine with more basic material (like steel and aluminum alloy). This could create a lower thrust version of a base engine (like the RD-93 or the WS-13 or WS-xx).

With the kind of rapid prototyping used by Musk, that developmental methodology could create a mature and cheap engine for Pakistan. Thoughts?

Well, you really want to put hand in a hornets's nest with elon. The issue is always going to be US govt which can interfere with anything his consortium may want to do.

My suggestion is to start with microjets which i believe Pak has already gotten via Ukraine or CSIR; master those and build from those experiences. The biggest challenge remains, there are no alloy capabilities locally there. Until that happens, the rest remains a disjointed effort. Infrastructure and R&D away from officer corps is required. there needs to be completely divorce - no one from the defence force must be there; they are just a client and cannot be put into the mix.

 

[Armchair]

Well, you really want to put hand in a hornets's nest with elon. The issue is always going to be US govt which can interfere with anything his consortium may want to do.

My suggestion is to start with microjets which i believe Pak has already gotten via Ukraine or CSIR; master those and build from those experiences. The biggest challenge remains, there are no alloy capabilities locally there. Until that happens, the rest remains a disjointed effort. Infrastructure and R&D away from officer corps is required. there needs to be completely divorce - no one from the defence force must be there; they are just a client and cannot be put into the mix.

Cheers and thanks for the reply and insight!

 

[denel]

Cheers and thanks for the reply and insight!

Your thoughts are good. My concern always is to have people from armed forces putting their finger where it does not belong - leave it to us developers and engineers to do the work as required. The issue I digress from what I observe a self inflicted one. People have put the army volks on a pedestal as they are know all- that is a falacy and root cause of the problem. If it means organizing and project management - you have project managers for that; not an army general who knows dickall about planning or a pilot - who knows nothing about control systems etc or an artillery person about the mechanics of propellant research - the list goes on.

Just look at the mess Egypt has been for decades and it will remain in that manner.

Pak has the ability and people to do any chart of direction they need to go. Have confidence and the govt needs to lay the foundations for that; Erdogan is a casing point - he castrated the generals and told them to remain and protect the frontier. He pushed resources and money into R&D and intellectual capital from universities and institutions - the results are all in front of us. That is the same direction that Pak must follow. Until, Mullah or Army fingering stops; Pak will never progress.

@MastanKhan

 

[Armchair]

Your thoughts are good. My concern always is to have people from armed forces putting their finger where it does not belong - leave it to us developers and engineers to do the work as required. The issue I digress from what I observe a self inflicted one. People have put the army volks on a pedestal as they are know all- that is a falacy and root cause of the problem. If it means organizing and project management - you have project managers for that; not an army general who knows dickall about planning or a pilot - who knows nothing about control systems etc or an artillery person about the mechanics of propellant research - the list goes on.

Just look at the mess Egypt has been for decades and it will remain in that manner.

Pak has the ability and people to do any chart of direction they need to go. Have confidence and the govt needs to lay the foundations for that; Erdogan is a casing point - he castrated the generals and told them to remain and protect the frontier. He pushed resources and money into R&D and intellectual capital from universities and institutions - the results are all in front of us. That is the same direction that Pak must follow. Until, Mullah or Army fingering stops; Pak will never progress.

@MastanKhan

Yes, that's the main problem. I've myself written about this so many times. I even have a chapter of a book I wrote where I touched upon this.

At the same time, if it turns into a typical Pakistani civilian government institution, it will go to the drain as well. So, something new needs to be designed from an administrative point of view. What that exactly should be is still a question mark but the biggest question mark is on the part of the decision makers who have totally ignored the point you are making.

 

[Path-Finder]

which i believe Pak has already gotten via Ukraine or CSIR

I strongly believe that its SA micro jet/turbofans that Pakistan has obtained!

 

[denel]

Yes, that's the main problem. I've myself written about this so many times. I even have a chapter of a book I wrote where I touched upon this.

At the same time, if it turns into a typical Pakistani civilian government institution, it will go to the drain as well. So, something new needs to be designed from an administrative point of view. What that exactly should be is still a question mark but the biggest question mark is on the part of the decision makers who have totally ignored the point you are making.

It is called do-nothing-cracy. Holding to a job to get paid is it... there is no drive to do anything.

Iqbal says it well.... you put your hands and lament; 100 yrs and now it is still same casing point.

 

[pkd]

PL-10E new SRAAM for JF-17 blk-3 fully enabled by HMDS