JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[pkd]

You are right and my emphasis was that there is no chatter about new engine for Block-III until & unless, we are SURPRISED.

I think @messiach insinuated to it in the block 3 thread when she indicated it's TWR at sea level

 

[Sine Nomine]

So basically a JF17 WVR is a dead JF17. [emoji21][emoji21]

No,but when you can kill an enemy from 150km away,why would you risk going near him,that too knowing that he has more chances in hand to outgun you.

 

[Alpha BeeTee]

Btw is sd-10 a fox1, fox2 or fox3?

Does JF17 have a fox2 at its disposal?

Would appreciate a reply if someone knows.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

These differences only come into account in BVR engagements.

In close dogfights, I won't need an AESA or PL-15 rather more agility, climb rate, thrust to weight ratio will matter.

A more agile F16 with its sidewinder would be better off in a dog fight as compared to a (relatively) sluggish JF17 with a long range PL-15.

Su-30 has TVC and due to which in theory it should be unbeatable. But ion 27 feb. it was out ranged by AAMRAM. We shot one down, other left the field.
WVR range is gone. Its look first, shoot first now.
JF-17 has a small RCS which will be reduced more by use of composites. With an AESA it won't allow any plane to come close to it.

 

[LeGenD]

It's not everything,with PL-15 and AESA it would never go into fight which would put it on disadvantage

Keeping in view the sheer speed of jets, environmental considerations, and the type of defenses they might be up against in combat situations, BVR engagements do not necessarily translate to one-shot kills in a short period. Therefore, jets must do well in WVR engagements, and also at different altitudes. There are solid reasons as to why JF-17 variants are actually force-multipliers and not replacing F-16 variants in the inventory of PAF anytime soon.

 

[Sine Nomine]

B and 3 both have digital triplex fbw

Yup i knew about B,but i read that many things from B would make their way into 3.I was putting bets on spine for range increase but alas.

 

[Alpha BeeTee]

No,but when you can kill an enemy from 150km away,why would you risk going near him,that too knowing that he has more chances in hand to outgun you.

That's an overdependance on the BVR missiles specially when they can be evaded relatively easily by making them loose energy or messing with their radar.

 

[pkd]

Su-30 has TVC and due to which in theory it should be unbeatable. But ion 27 feb. it was out ranged by AAMRAM. We shot one down, other left the field.
WVR range is gone. Its look first, shoot first now.
JF-17 has a small RCS which will be reduced more by use of composites. With an AESA it won't allow any plane to come close to it.

The bottom line is that if you have a good enough range, hurling a couple of BVRAAMs from a far distance will keep the entire flock at bay.

 

[The Eagle]

Keeping in view the sheer speed of jets, environmental considerations, and the type of defenses they might be up against in combat situations, BVR engagements do nor necessarily translate to one-shot kills. Therefore, jets must do well in WVR engagements and/or performance every vary at high altitudes. There are solid reasons as to why JF-17 variants are actually force-multipliers and not replacing F-16 variants in the inventory of PAF anytime soon.

AoA (like for the dog fight) is improved a lot (thanks to @messiach for explaining the same nicely) as we will see in Block-III wings like never seen before. Bifurcation is well noted in Block-B wing which speaks as what it could be to maintain altitude/AoA in slow speed regime.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Keeping in view the sheer speed of jets, environmental considerations, and the type of defenses they might be up against in combat situations, BVR engagements do nor necessarily translate to one-shot kills. Therefore, jets must do well in WVR engagements and/or performance every vary at high altitudes. There are solid reasons as to why JF-17 variants are actually force-multipliers and not replacing F-16 variants in the inventory of PAF anytime soon.

Anyone who has better ESM,Intel and avionics+weapon combo would win over other.
About F-16 i say that, in hands of fully trained pilot any Jet including F-22&35 would sign off their death warrant,if they invite it into WVR.You can't grasp how this thing changes position in WVR.

AoA (like for the dog fight) is improved a lot (thanks to @messiach for explaining the same nicely) as we will see in Block-III wings like never seen before. Bifurcation is well noted in Block-B wing which speaks as what it could be to maintain altitude/AoA in slow speed regime.

Do add improvement in TWR due to weight reduction by use of composites in it.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Bottom line is, never send JF17 to fight alone without papa (F16).

That is true for blk 3s as well.

Try to get the kill through JF17's BVR but if that fails, (which it will in a lot of cases) always have an F16 close by to rescue the same JF17 from getting mugged in a WVR.

That's an overdependance on the BVR missiles specially when they can be evaded relatively easily by making them loose energy or messing with their radar.

You are failing to understand that it's meant to be a multirole fighter,no over emphasis on anything except for BVR combat.
It's not sitting duck as you have started to think is,they were used to escort strike formation in broad daylight into IOJK.
New version with these improvements

AoA (like for the dog fight) is improved a lot (thanks to @messiach for explaining the same nicely) as we will see in Block-III wings like never seen before. Bifurcation is well noted in Block-B wing which speaks as what it could be to maintain altitude/AoA in slow speed regime.

Do add improvement in TWR due to weight reduction by use of composites in it.

Fully improved FBW system,HMS/HMD and HOBS missile have improved it a lot into domain of WVR,trying to compare any fighter in terms of WVR with F-16 & MIG-29 is not justified,since they are in league of their own.

 

[Basel]

i hate the Engine and thrust to weight ratio its RD-93MA old same engine
1- black smoke
2- service life is just 2200 hours
3- thrust is low just 85 kn
4- no cruise speed

just because of service life they have to overhal these aircraft sooner then other aircraft

If you don't like it then you can finance EJ-200/230 from EU for JFT.

 

[LeGenD]

Anyone who has better ESM,Intel and avionics+weapon combo would win over other.

True.

About F-16 i say that, in hands of fully trained pilot any Jet including F-22&35 would sign off their death warrant,if they invite it into WVR.You can't grasp how this thing changes position in WVR.

It is very difficult to outdo F-16 variants in a kinematics-focused scenario, yes. Although, both F-22A and F-35A have relatively superior composites-to-metal ratio, and can individually literally turn better than even top-of-the-line Russian jets with TVC.

But kinematics was 4th generation argument and selling-point.

Electronic components of F-22A and F-35A are not just state-of-the-art but they work as a whole (sensor-netting). These components are among the most complex ever devised even in isolation but they function as a whole (a single system). As such, F-22A and F-35A pack so much raw power and artificial intelligence within that they will literally disable-kill a lesser aircraft in WVR situations. This is akin to partaking in aerial combat with cheat codes. Above all, F-22A and F-35A specialize in masking their signatures to large extent (VLO design and optimizations). This is why American pilots are reporting extremely one-sided kill ratios with F-22A and F-35A in RED FLAG simulations wherein all options are on the table and allowed.

 

[Gorgin Khan]

These differences only come into account in BVR engagements.

In close dogfights, I won't need an AESA or PL-15 rather more agility, climb rate, thrust to weight ratio will matter.

A more agile F16 with its sidewinder would be better off in a dog fight as compared to a (relatively) sluggish JF17 with a long range PL-15.

Why do we forget about HMDS being integrated, and surely efforts should be underway to get HOBS. It decreases the advantage of maneuverable foe. It will all depend on who sees who first, either visually or electronically and get a lock.

 

[The Eagle]

JF-17 Block-III | Pakistan progressing well on the indigenization of its Air Force!
An unnamed BVRAAM has already been test fired by the PAF a few months ago.
September 27, 2019 Mark Frank Defense Updates 0

Defence Updates- Pakistan/ JF-17 Block-III

Thunder Block III has been developed with the latest version of F-16 V Fighter Jet in mind as a benchmark. The new variant of JF-17 is being fitted with an AESA radar, helmet-mounted display and sight system.

The JF-17 is a 4++ generation multirole fighter aircraft being made in Pakistan with technology acquired from Chengdu Aircraft Co., of China. JF-17 Block III aircraft will also feature a new electronic warfare system, upgraded avionics including a three-axis fly-by-wire digital flight control system, and a helmet-mounted display and sight system.

The latest variant is expected to be powered by a better engine, as compared to Klimov RD-93 turbofan engine which has been fitted in Block I & II of the aircraft. The JF-17 Block III has an approximate combat radius of up to 2000 kilometers without refueling and can reach a maximum speed of up to 2500 km/h (without dropping fuel tanks).

The Block III version, which has been in development for over 2 years now is characterized by an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, helmet-mounted targeting system (HMS), an advanced targeting pod, data links and beyond visual range weapons. With its new integrated frontal infra-red search and track sensor the aircraft will have the capability for quick information sharing and network-enabled operations that facilitate earlier detection and interception of enemy aircraft.

JF-17 Thunder of PAF
The HMS system will allow pilots to aim anything in his/her sight. Whereas, the AESA radar will augment the jet’s capability, enabling it to engage from a longer range and attack multiple targets. The aircraft can alternatively be armed with air-to-air, air-to-surface, and anti-ship missiles. It will also be able to fire beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles (BVRAAM). An unnamed BVRAAM has already been test fired by the PAF a few months ago.

The Block III version of the Thunder will allow information sharing between the fighter and other platforms. This will increase the efficacy of the entire combat system in defending against strong adversaries.

The production of the aircraft is already underway. The Block III is expected to carry a price tag less than half the price of the latest generation F-16 V fighter jet and features, manauveraility and speed similar to that of the US aircraft.

Hope that as soon as Rafale lands in India, JF-17 Block-III makes an entry like yet another surprise.