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JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

Pakistan should start in investing in engine technology, be it jet engine or internal combustion or electric motor driven. Pakistan needs to start investing now, to have a decent product 10-15 years from now depending on what it is.. for example a jet engine will take appx 20 years of constant development to mature. This brings to a point as to where does Pakistan procure engines for it's cruise and ballistic missiles ???

Hi,

You really seem to be clueless as to what it takes to to manufacture a successful engine,

A jet engine for pakistan may take 50 years and still it may not be at par---.

Chinese with all their industrial base---research and thousands pf PhD's is almost hitting the 20 year mark and still way way behind the leading european engine.
 
We should try to double the production line with the help of china. Until 2021, we should have 250 jf17s, because we skipped j10s , and others in favor of project azm and jf17s for huge number.
I've feeling if we can't increase production lines of jf17s, we are in need of 50 J10s, even it's price is double than jf17. We should try to get 50 J10s as urgent need, to keep balance because we didn't get 250 jf17s until 2020.

Paf have 75 F16s and 134 Jf17s, next year paf will induct 30 Block 3s. Total = 239 4th generation jets. I wouldn't be so worried about delays, paf aim is not to get ahead of India but counter whatever they have in order to defend Pakistan. There is no need to double production as the current plan is going just fine, I believe its a blessing in disguise, we have more technology available and our next jf17s will have more upgrades.
If by 2030 we have 100 J35 and 50 J20s that would be fantastic.
 
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If by 2030 we have 100 J35 and 50 J20s that would be fantastic.


Oh come on … yes worldwide peace on earth would be fantastic too, but that‘s impossible exactly like 50 J-20s And I‘m sure even by 2030, not even the PLAN will have 100 J-35s.

Sorry my friend.
 
50 J-20 can come to Pakistan in 2030 (for an exercise only, not as part of PAF). Let's keep expectations realistic.
 
Oh come on … yes worldwide peace on earth would be fantastic too, but that‘s impossible exactly like 50 J-20s And I‘m sure even by 2030, not even the PLAN will have 100 J-35s.

Sorry my friend.

J20 will be 19 years old by 2030 and China will be testing 6th generation fighter jet. Usa will also be planning to induct 6th generation and Tempest will be introduced by 2035. So we cannot rule it out. The J35/j31 expectation was real until the program was delayed, but alot of people are saying it will be announced next year, if so then its possible It may be inducted early because the basic program has been around since 2011. Just being hopeful :)
 
Hi,

You really seem to be clueless as to what it takes to to manufacture a successful engine,

A jet engine for pakistan may take 50 years and still it may not be at par---.

Chinese with all their industrial base---research and thousands pf PhD's is almost hitting the 20 year mark and still way way behind the leading european engine.

No I am not clueless, this is an area that has high roi. If you read my post carefully I not only mention jet engines but all sort of other engine types. Let the foundation now and collaboration, joint ventures, independent research Pakistan can make good progress in next 10-20 years and could save lots of foreign reserve. Might as well export some. Currently Pakistan is making close to half a million vehicles with 4 or more wheels annually. Why can't we make their engine and transmission locally. Same examples goes to other areas.

We got to start somewhere... Why not today ?
 
No I am not clueless, this is an area that has high roi. If you read my post carefully I not only mention jet engines but all sort of other engine types. Let the foundation now and collaboration, joint ventures, independent research Pakistan can make good progress in next 10-20 years and could save lots of foreign reserve. Might as well export some. Currently Pakistan is making close to half a million vehicles with 4 or more wheels annually. Why can't we make their engine and transmission locally. Same examples goes to other areas.

We got to start somewhere... Why not today ?

License production is probably one of the best way to get into engine manufacturing for an engine you know you will be using for decades to come (like Volvo and the licensed version of the F-404 engine made by SAAB) . Once there is a Ws-13/19 engine at the right performance characteristics and if it is adopted for a JF-17 variant (and if the PAF procures the J-35 with the same engine) it would make sense to try to license produce the engine. Otherwise engine technology keeps advancing. We have to keep economies of scale into account. We also have a lot of other areas to focus on before aircraft engines. But I agree, automakers in Pakistan should have the ability to make the whole care including their own engines and transmissions.
 
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Oh come on … yes worldwide peace on earth would be fantastic too, but that‘s impossible exactly like 50 J-20s And I‘m sure even by 2030, not even the PLAN will have 100 J-35s.

Sorry my friend.

Deino why are you breaking the young man heart? 😜. China may have the planes considering their capacity to up the production line but Pakistan probably will be initiating some talks at that stage. No one can foresee that ahead how things pan out but 2030 is landmark date for AZM and TFX and lets see what stage will be the 5th generation projects.
 
License production is probably one of the best way to get into engine manufacturing for an engine you know you will be using for decades to come. Once there is a Ws-13/19 engine at the right performance characteristics and if it is adopted for a JF-17 variant (and if the PAF procures the J-35 with the same engine) it would make sense to try to license produce the engine. Otherwise engine technology keeps advancing. We have to keep economies of scale into account. We also have a lot of other areas to focus on before aircraft engines. But I agree, automakers in Pakistan should have the ability to make the whole care including their own engines and transmissions.

Hi,

Thanks for the post. Kids think that they can build an engine and that is the solution---.

They have no clue that it is just the begining of the PROBLEM.
 
License production is probably one of the best way to get into engine manufacturing for an engine you know you will be using for decades to come. Once there is a Ws-13/19 engine at the right performance characteristics and if it is adopted for a JF-17 variant (and if the PAF procures the J-35 with the same engine) it would make sense to try to license produce the engine. Otherwise engine technology keeps advancing. We have to keep economies of scale into account. We also have a lot of other areas to focus on before aircraft engines. But I agree, automakers in Pakistan should have the ability to make the whole care including their own engines and transmissions.
I think it's important to preface that the goal of an in-house engine is literally that, to have an in-house engine. The point is to have a sanction-free solution that'll guarantee a bare minimum level of airpower no matter what. So, even an engine that's 20-30 years behind the current Western stuff is fine. It isn't ideal, but if it can get a contemporary fighter with modern-day radar, ECM, AAMs, PGBs, and SOWs in the air, then that's a workable start. However, there'll be a cost in maintenance issues, reliability issues, performance issues, etc, and that's where iterative, long-term development and improvement are critical. It's a multi-decade-long process, but IMO, getting a locally built engine (albeit not a very good one) can come sooner (10-15 years with healthy funding), and that alone is a significant step forward.

I say this because there's no point in 'waiting' for the WS-13 to reach an ideal level. We could have an opportunity to start developing an engine with Ukraine right now (their AI-9500F project), but we should accept that the engine will probably be dog food for a while. However, in the course of developing that engine, we would learn a lot more about gas turbines and build capacity that we can use to advance the fighter engine as well as develop simpler engines for cruise missiles, drones, etc. We could even branch the gas turbine tech into turboshafts for helicopters.

Will this hypothetical engine take at least 10-15 years to materialize? Sure, and that's probably the best-case scenario. Will it be behind everyone else's engine? Definitely, that's the cost of not starting this work back in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, or even 2010s. However, will we manufacture our own engine and, potentially, build a fighter on a turnkey basis? That's the hope.

We should be frank about the JF-17's limitations, for example, but we can take pride in saying we have a credible air asset we can rely on no matter what. Is the JF-17 a relaxed stability, composite-heavy design? NOPE. Does it carry an AESA radar and lob a LRAAM at 100+ km at someone? YUP. Same idea here. Can this hypothetical engine take our JF-17 and NGFA up into the air? YUP. Can it, in theory, shoot down a Tejas with all the fancy bells and whistles (and heftier price-tag)? YUP. @SQ8

With a long-term vision and sincere leadership, we can go from absolute zero today to a dogsh!t engine in 15 years...but go to a 'OK' engine in the next 15 years...and to a 'world-class' engine in the next 15 years. It'd be 45-50 years of development, but having that dogsh!t engine in the beginning would take us leaps and bounds over where we're at today. The rest is about institutional development, maturation and perfecting our labour, infrastructure, sciences, etc to get to the world-class design.

tldr; I'd take a dogsh!t engine today if it meant we can build it in Pakistan 100%. I have full confidence in my people that with the right vision and leadership, we could take it to the world-class level within 50 years, probably sooner if we up our ambition and our relentlessness.
 
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Paf have 75 F16s and 134 Jf17s, next year paf will induct 30 Block 3s. Total = 239 4th generation jets. I wouldn't be so worried about delays, paf aim is not to get ahead of India but counter whatever they have in order to defend Pakistan. There is no need to double production as the current plan is going just fine, I believe its a blessing in disguise, we have more technology available and our next jf17s will have more upgrades.
If by 2030 we have 100 J35 and 50 J20s that would be fantastic.

By this logic if we start in 2050, we will get a much upgraded jet! We need to be technologically superior to India. They will always have more numbers. Our strength is in maintaining first see, first shoot capability. If we loose the edge, out already lower numbers would become a huge problem for us. Its a race and theres no time for rest.
 
License production is probably one of the best way to get into engine manufacturing for an engine you know you will be using for decades to come. Once there is a Ws-13/19 engine at the right performance characteristics and if it is adopted for a JF-17 variant (and if the PAF procures the J-35 with the same engine) it would make sense to try to license produce the engine. Otherwise engine technology keeps advancing. We have to keep economies of scale into account. We also have a lot of other areas to focus on before aircraft engines. But I agree, automakers in Pakistan should have the ability to make the whole care including their own engines and transmissions.
It make sense, we got to start somewhere. And then keep progressing along. Someday inshallah we will get there. A thousand miles journey begins with a single step. ... Pakistan should take that step today...
Hi,

Thanks for the post. Kids think that they can build an engine and that is the solution---.

They have no clue that it is just the begining of the PROBLEM.
Mr Khan just be respectful...
 
car ka engine banta nahi.....but we will make jet engines

Most companies would sue you for copyright and patent infringement even when you are in development stage of a car engiene. The reason being base tech for car engiene is patented by big companies. Even some large car manufacturers utilised dedicated engine manufacturing companies for their car engines. A toyota made car doesnt nexessarily have a made by Toyota car engiene. China has a unique position being second largest economy still they face lawsuits every other day. Manufacturing car engiene itself is no big feet but keeping the large industrial wolves at bay will cost you a fortune.

Military tech is an entirely different matter as you dont require commercial utilisation hence much less oversight. Still OEMs always are on tail.
 
By this logic if we start in 2050, we will get a much upgraded jet! We need to be technologically superior to India. They will always have more numbers. Our strength is in maintaining first see, first shoot capability. If we loose the edge, out already lower numbers would become a huge problem for us. Its a race and theres no time for rest.

I would say 2050 is fine if India doesn't induct Rafale/fifth generation jets, I am making a point on when India already had the su30mkis, had Miraaj 2000, mig29, which all are 4th generation jets. We had 75 f16s including 18 block 52s, and had over 100 Jf17 ready, also 4th generation jets which are enough to counter India. Then India planned to induct Rafale/Tejas which had the latest technology, so the last 5 years is a blessing in disguise because all those years the Jf17 matured, had new technology available, and India only now has started to induct Rafael. We will in exchange induct latest jf17 block 3s which are way more advanced than the jets we would have inducted in 2015. Also J10C is available which is another bonus, China has an indigenous engine available.

We want to be more advanced than India but the west is not willing to sell to Pakistan, China J10C was not available and many techs on Jf17 block 3 werent available many years ago.
 

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