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JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

IMO ... the Block-III isn't getting an engine change. But I do think it's possible if there is a Block-IV, Block-V, etc. Be it FC-31 or otherwise, the FGFA is still some ways away, and there'll be snags and delays (even if China does all of the work).

However, the JF-17 already has a lot of key weapons integrated to it (with Ra'ad now likely) and the PAF is familiar with how to operate and deploy it.

There's no harm in building more of those. The Block-Is will reach 20 years of age in the 2030s; one option is replacing them with a Block-IV with RD-93MA.
Instead of Block 4/5, What If a MLU has been planned ?

We can sellout current inventory of Block 1 and produce Block 3 to fill in the gap in future, or maybe even Block 4 instead of 3
 
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@vostok friend if you have time can you please translate the news in the above link.

I am sorry, I am not that good in technical English, so I've used google translate with some improvements.
The RD-93MA engine was shipped from St. Petersburg to Moscow. It was developed by UEC-Klimov (part of the United Engine Corporation of Rostec State Corporation) will have to confirm altitude-speed characteristics in conditions of flight simulation at the stand of the Central Institute of Aviation Motors named after P.I. Baranova (TsIAM).
A complex of tests in the TsIAM large thermal pressure chamber will be held as part of the experimental design work on the RD-93MA. Flight conditions will be simulated during tests. The functions of the automatic control system of the BARK-93MA engine, designed and manufactured at JSC UEC-Klimov, will be tested.
The RD-93MA engine has improved performance. In particular, increased thermodynamic parameters, an improved design of the ventilators and the hot part of engine, an upgraded automatic power plant control system. The main figures are also improved - the service resource and power ratio. An additional emergency engine start mode was provided in the air and the possibility of emergency fuel drain was realized. All this is due to the specifics associated with the possible use of the engine on a single-engine aircraft, which entails additional safety requirements.
 
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I have not seen any source that says Pakistan is getting the engines directly from Russia. China was party to the engine deal and all RD-93s, as far as I am concerned, come through China. It makes similar sense that any upgraded engines would follow the same route. After all, JF-17 is a joint project between a Chinese company, CAC, and PAC.

Similarly, since the development and testing of Block III prototype is being carried out in China as well, it makes sense any upgraded engine will go through flight testing by CAC as well.

As far as the development for the new RD-93MA goes, it is either using the technology already in place for the upgraded RD-33MK or is a slight update to it. I highly doubt Pakistan would have paid for any of it but from the Russian side, it makes sense to update the engine as it will still reap the benefits if JF-17 is sold elsewhere as they are the sole supplier of its engines.
 
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IMO ... the Block-III isn't getting an engine change. But I do think it's possible if there is a Block-IV, Block-V, etc. Be it FC-31 or otherwise, the FGFA is still some ways away, and there'll be snags and delays (even if China does all of the work).

However, the JF-17 already has a lot of key weapons integrated to it (with Ra'ad now likely) and the PAF is familiar with how to operate and deploy it.

There's no harm in building more of those. The Block-Is will reach 20 years of age in the 2030s; one option is replacing them with a Block-IV with RD-93MA.

I agree . It seems like the buzz around the RD-93MA for Block-III may be a bit unrealistic. You do not incorporate a vital component into a system so late into the production cycle. Unless Block-III deployment is being delayed, it is highly unlikely this version will find its way into the JF-17 anytime soon.

Such a critical component as an engine will have to go though all the rigour of benchmark testing validation and finally deployment.

Highly unlikely for Block-III. Perhaps Block-IV or mid-cycle upgrade Block-III.5
 
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what kind of thrust are we talking here and how much extra can it provide

does it mean the JF17 Block III can make a vertical climb without breaking left to avoid stall?

it would be nice to see a more powerful engine

however I would also agree that isn't it a bit late??
 
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Wrong time for experiments.Its a BVR era of air combat & speed doesn't matter that much.I am surprised that some friends here think that BLK 3 will be fitted with 93MA.I don't know, maybe they are completely unaware of the fact that the current situation on LAC & LOC does not allow Pakistan to go for a go-around.
We need the 3s asap.The wishlist we can check at BLK04.
 
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Thanks @vostok

In particular, increased thermodynamic parameters, an improved design of the ventilators and the hot part of engine, an upgraded automatic power plant control system. The main figures are also improved - the service resource and power ratio. An additional emergency engine start mode was provided in the air and the possibility of emergency fuel drain was realized. All this is due to the specifics associated with the possible use of the engine on a single-engine aircraft, which entails additional safety requirements.

1. Increased thermodynamic parameters mean better efficiency.
2. Improved design of ventilators - probably higher by-pass ratio (improved efficiency & heat exchange functionality)
3. Improved design of the hot part of engine - It mean higher efficiency & more power.
4. Upgraded automatic power plant control system - FADEC.
5. Service resource - maintenance & availability.
6. Power ratio - Yay... engine TWR - definitely means higher thrust.
7. Emergency start mode - safety related.

If the hot section is modified, then this definitely means higher dry thrust. It would also improve efficiency if engine runs at a higher temperature; add higher by-pass ratio, & you get improved efficiency.

I wish it could be possible to quantify the improvements in percentages and hard numbers. But if the above is true, then I can optimistically guess that TWR of Block III with RD-93MA would be greater than 1. It would also resolve issue with dry engine power & thus the ability to power a decent AESA radar.

I think Russians have upped their game due to two reasons:
1. WS-13 availability.
2. Non-OEM improvements to RD-93 that have forced Russians to improve RD-93MA farther than originally anticipated. This could also explain the delay in development of RD-93MA.

Obviously, all of the above are my guesses. I could be wrong.
 
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IMO ... the Block-III isn't getting an engine change. But I do think it's possible if there is a Block-IV, Block-V, etc. Be it FC-31 or otherwise, the FGFA is still some ways away, and there'll be snags and delays (even if China does all of the work).

However, the JF-17 already has a lot of key weapons integrated to it (with Ra'ad now likely) and the PAF is familiar with how to operate and deploy it.

There's no harm in building more of those. The Block-Is will reach 20 years of age in the 2030s; one option is replacing them with a Block-IV with RD-93MA.

I totally agree with @Bilal Khan (Quwa). What the people here dont understand is how the product development process works.

The test flight is carried out only when the prototyping phase is already finished. The successful testing of a product is proceeded by the production phase.

Prototyping of a product is only carried out once the specs have been finalized. And this is including all sub-assemblies of the product i.e. it is not possible to go into prototyping of the body while the engine is still in development phase because the changes could happen till the very end of the development phase.

Now with all the rumors of RD 93MA around, either the Block-3 proto was already fitted with the RD-93MA to be cleared for testing or the RD 93MA is still in the development phase and is meant for the next block i.e. Block IV.

This means, it is quite possible that one block is already in testing phase whereas the next block is in development phase and is quite a usual practice and is referred to as 'parallel development process' involving the development of different versions of the same product in parallel to reduce the process lead time.

Summing it up, until and unless we dont know which engine the Block 3 prototype was sporting, we wont ever know which engine the production jet would carry. And going by the news reports of the testing of RD-93MA and considering that the testing and optimization process could go on for years, the RD-93MA is most probably months if not years away from production which could make it a possible candidate for the block-IV of JF-17 but not for the block-III whose prototype has already made its flight.

The only other possibility is if the planners have decided to go back to the drawing board again and want to rejig the specs and iterate the complete development process to incorporate the newly developed engine into Block III which would not only delay the product but is highly improbable considering when the neighbor is boasting about her new French toy on almost a daily basis.

upload_2020-7-12_12-26-45.png
 
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Wrong time for experiments.Its a BVR era of air combat & speed doesn't matter that much.I am surprised that some friends here think that BLK 3 will be fitted with 93MA.I don't know, maybe they are completely unaware of the fact that the current situation on LAC & LOC does not allow Pakistan to go for a go-around.
We need the 3s asap.The wishlist we can check at BLK04.
Decisions were made years ago. Apart from inducting more (improved?) Block-IIs there is no other way out. Also, fourth generation combat jets can not be churned out just like that. This is why strategic planning is important.
 
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IMO ... the Block-III isn't getting an engine change.

You means, in next 3-4 years 50 Block-IIIs will churns out with old RD-93 Engine and this RD93MA is developed for an imaginative order of post 5 years of Block-3 for Block-IV?.....highly unlikly sir, conventional wisdom do not accepts it. In this context UEC press release is also supportive where it talks about "possible use of the power-plant on a single-engine aircraft..." bcz RD93 Series, due to Its unique Gear Box position cannot be used in any other aircraft except JF17 exclusively. So, why UEC developed an Engine in 2020 which cannot be usable until 2025?

I think Russians have upped their game due to two reasons:
1. WS-13 availability.
2. Non-OEM improvements to RD-93 that have forced Russians to improve RD-93MA farther than originally anticipated. This could also explain the delay in development of RD-93MA.

You may be right in your own ways sir, but the circumstantial evidences suggest both Russia and China are reluctant and not so eager to develop this improvement (RD93-RD93MA). Bcz this improvement (8300Kgf to 9300Kgf thrust was on cards since 2009 and actually destine to be used in JF17 Block-2 earlier, so this improvement is at least 10 years late.
http://www.kommersant.com/p717480/r_529/Russia_China_India_military/ .
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/rd-93-engine-strength-or-weakness.31827/page-2
Russians reluctant understandable bcz of India and they resultantly under pressure eager to first develop RD33 to RD33MK level with increase thrust as that is to be used in Mig29K types and thus subside India anger a bit.
Chinese believes to replace RD93 with their own WS13 somehow, so they tried their bit to convince PAF to go for their engine somehow in past 10 years. Disappointment is still visible at Chinese forums on web on this news as WS13 primary usage in great numbers was JF17/J31.

I thinks, Its only the PAF who believes to use Russian Engine persistently and ask for development towards RD93MA level as both Russian and China have no Aircraft in their inventory to use this RD93 series.

it would be nice to see a more powerful engine

however I would also agree that isn't it a bit late??

Yes, Its Late, but better late than never....What we say in Urdu/Farsi.."Dair-Ayed; Drust Ayed"
 
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Decisions were made years ago. Apart from inducting more (improved?) Block-IIs there is no other way out. Also, fourth generation combat jets can not be churned out just like that. This is why strategic planning is important.

Then we should be more vigilant as it is required by the rapid strategically changing situation.Just imagine, the news for an engine change coming after India announced the delivery of Rafael on 27th July this year.Now everybody knows that these jets are meant to be used against Pakistan.If India tries any adventure, i don't think we have a counter for it.

All this, is based upon an assumptions that the engine change is planned for BLK 03.Maybe its planned for BLK 04.
Fingers crossed.
 
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I know JF17 B3s will be produced in bigger numbers next year

But weren't we supposed to get 2 jets this year

Anyone know when we will get them?
 
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IMO ... the Block-III isn't getting an engine change. But I do think it's possible if there is a Block-IV, Block-V, etc. Be it FC-31 or otherwise, the FGFA is still some ways away, and there'll be snags and delays (even if China does all of the work).

However, the JF-17 already has a lot of key weapons integrated to it (with Ra'ad now likely) and the PAF is familiar with how to operate and deploy it.

There's no harm in building more of those. The Block-Is will reach 20 years of age in the 2030s; one option is replacing them with a Block-IV with RD-93MA.

Will PAF retire JF17s at 30 years, when it has 50+ year old Mirage III/V airframes still operating?

No they wont. PAF will mostly like refurbish the airframe, and try to zero as much of it as it can and replace what it can't..
 
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Will PAF retire JF17s at 30 years, when it has 50+ year old Mirage III/V airframes still operating?

No they wont. PAF will mostly like refurbish the airframe, and try to zero as much of it as it can and replace what it can't..
IMO...I wouldn't use the Mirage as an example to make that point.

The Mirages serve an essential niche role -- SOW/ALCM deployment -- which the PAF has yet to transition over to any new aircraft as of-yet. Not only that, but being an import, replacing the older airframes with new aircraft wasn't a realistic or feasible option to begin with (which isn't the issue with the JF-17). Finally, the PAF never found a new (but affordable and accessible) aircraft to replace the Mirage in its niche role.

Basically, the Mirage III/5s are still flying 50+ years later more out of necessity -- and a lack of feasible alternatives -- than anything else. On the other hand, the JF-17 doesn't have any of these constraints.

Finally, it will also depend on how much the PAF can save, monetarily, by refurbishing and upgrading the old aircraft versus buying new. When we think of the fact that we're not dealing with a Western import, the margin is probably a lot lower (between new and upgrades). But we also know the Block-III-based aircraft (especially if there's a new engine involved as some here believe), then you may not be able to bridge the capability gap with upgrades easily or cost-effectively. You'll, at best, have a partial solution (e.g., some systems, but not all).

That can be fine, but there's an operational cost to flying fighters (old or new), and a cost to the upgrades. So, for the PAF, the key is whether that gap (i.e., the cost of upgrading + flying older planes versus cost of buying new + flying newer planes) is big enough to upgrade, or to buy new. If we were talking about Western fighters, then yes, upgrading is probably the way to go. But the story with the JF-17 is quite different (built locally with key inputs from lower-cost Eastern sources).

You means, in next 3-4 years 50 Block-IIIs will churns out with old RD-93 Engine and this RD93MA is developed for an imaginative order of post 5 years of Block-3 for Block-IV?.....highly unlikly sir, conventional wisdom do not accepts it. In this context UEC press release is also supportive where it talks about "possible use of the power-plant on a single-engine aircraft..." bcz RD93 Series, due to Its unique Gear Box position cannot be used in any other aircraft except JF17 exclusively. So, why UEC developed an Engine in 2020 which cannot be usable until 2025?
We know PAC/PAC officials said they were OK with the RD-93. We also know that the Block-III is already under production (source). Basically, they wouldn't start building the first 2 aircraft without securing a working engine.

So, they've either tested and certified the RD-93MA before the OEM of the RD-93MA started any of its own tests on the engine (very unlikely), or they're using the RD-93. UEC itself states, "Upon successful completion of this stage, permission will be obtained for flight design tests."

In other words, the RD-93MA isn't even ready for flight testing, so how can it be ready for a fighter the PAF will (COVID-19 notwithstanding) will start inducting in 2021?

There are only 3 possibilities here:

  1. the PAF has opted to delay the Block-III entirely and wait for this engine or;

  2. it will split the Block-III into 2 parts, one with the RD-93 and a later batch with RD-93MA (which will mean the second batch will come later than originally scheduled) or;

  3. the RD-93MA will make its way to a fourth tranche of JF-17s (which is plausible since the PAF has already gone over its 150 jet-requirement by adding 26 JF-17Bs).
 
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I know JF17 B3s will be produced in bigger numbers next year

But weren't we supposed to get 2 jets this year

Anyone know when we will get them?

This year still has nearly six months left.

Besides, the delivery of Block-3s will have to coincide with delivery of Rafales next door.
 
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