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Jeff Bezos and Blue Origin rocket makes historic landing | CNN

Unproven and unlikely. It's like Communists boasting about "first socialist society". Privatized spaceflight is an ideological prejudice in motion.


And yet it is flowering in the US despite your protests.

New industries are being birthed as we speak.

The Dawn of the Space Mining Age - Guest Blog - Scientific American Blog Network

Looking at the government failing and then declaring that the private sector will fail too from the get-go is ideological prejudice itself.

Betting against human greed and profit motivation is not advisable.
 
And yet it is flowering in the US despite your protests. New industries are being birthed as we speak.

Privatized spaceflight is flowering in the sense asparagus is growing in Death Valley with massive and unsustainable infusions of Shasta water, and new industries are being birthed in the sense cloning can produce one compromised live specimen from 200+ failed inseminations.

My initial point stands. Bezos is doing what NASA and the USSR did 70 years ago, with massive subsidies from the government itself. And to be clear, the whole "same side up" claim is retarded. Every space vehicle has to land the same way it goes up, with the heat shield facing down.

Looking at the government failing and then declaring that the private sector will fail too from the get-go is ideological prejudice itself.

The government isn't "failing". It's not as though GPS, telecom and weather satelites (which were designed by the military, i.e., the govt) are falling to earth. What we have now, is entirely the product of government efforts. The belief private industry can do it better is speculative and being forced into being in the same way Communist states put huge resources into making collectivized farming work so they could say, "so there".

The very fact I make such an argument proves I am not prejudiced.

Betting against human greed and profit motivation is not advisable.

What an un-Christian argument. Societies and ventures that are based on nothing more than greed ultimately fail. One could quite easily argue this was the demise of Greek and Arab science during the late Roman and medieval periods.
 
Privatized spaceflight is flowering in the sense asparagus is growing in Death Valley with massive and unsustainable infusions of Shasta water, and new industries are being birthed in the sense cloning can produce one compromised live specimen from 200+ failed inseminations.

half of one percent of the national budget is unsustainable? Actually less because that's the total budget for NASA.

There are some companies more viable than others, but privatized spaceflight has already been proven by SpaceX as viable and economically profitable.

You can hardly call them 'clones'


Where else in the world is this sort of list of space related companies popping up? You might call them unproven, but elsewhere there aren't even the companies to call unproven!
NewSpace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

specifically these.

Of course not every company will survive, and some are longshots while others are quite down to earth, but where else do you see this sort of list of space related businesses popping up? I'd like to know.
My initial point stands. Bezos is doing what NASA and the USSR did 70 years ago, with massive subsidies from the government itself. And to be clear, the whole "same side up" claim is retarded. Every space vehicle has to land the same way it goes up, with the heat shield facing down.
The point is economic reusability and sustainability. Clearly the Soviet and NASA programs were unsustainable, that is proven by history and was not their primary focus. Now, private companies are doing what was before only the domain of governments, and global superpowers at that! Sustainability is part of their business plans.


NASA sent men to the moon about 50 years ago, that doesn't change that if a private company did the same thing it would be a world first and historical event... They'd also be more likely to stay.


The government isn't "failing". It's not as though GPS, telecom and weather satelites (which were designed by the military, i.e., the govt) are falling to earth. What we have now, is entirely the product of government efforts.
I was referencing an economically viable reusable spacecraft. Both governments unequivocally failed!

As for private industry, of course it has not been to the level of government efforts, it is still growing and for the most part in its infancy! That said the potential is there, and a few have already proven themselves, there is no reason to believe more won't. In regards to rockets at least, it has already been proven that private industry can do better economically.

NASA Figures Show That Commercial Rocket Costs Less Than Half as Much as Government-Run Effort Would - Observations - Scientific American Blog Network

The belief private industry can do it better is speculative and being forced into being in the same way Communist states put huge resources into making collectivized farming work so they could say, "so there".

The very fact I make such an argument proves I am not prejudiced.

I suppose I should make this clear, are you arguing that newspace companies should not accept CCDev funding or else they are doomed to failure because any amount of government funding means their business model is $hit?

This is what it sounds like to me, please clarify.

No one is arguing that the government hasn't jump-started the growth of commercial space, probably it wouldn't have even been born without government encouragement, but SpaceX for example are now sustainable without government help. I also don't consider government contracts as help, they are paying for services provided.







What an un-Christian argument. Societies and ventures that are based on nothing more than greed ultimately fail. One could quite easily argue this was the demise of Greek and Arab science during the late Roman and medieval periods.
Sorry, not Christian, and profit is a great motivator.

Greed is like fire, its a very useful motivator but can destroy if not contained.

It is in fact a core basis of capitalism, harnessing profit motive and human greed.
 
half of one percent of the national budget is unsustainable? Actually less because that's the total budget for NASA. There are some companies more viable than others, but privatized spaceflight has already been proven by SpaceX as viable and economically profitable. NASA sent men to the moon about 50 years ago, that doesn't change that if a private company did the same thing it would be a world first and historical event... They'd also be more likely to stay.

The point is that privatized space industry isn't going to become a self-supporting industry. Your claim is speculative, and the abundant resources available to venture capital these days and the fact it hasn't happened yet indicate your prediction is unlikely in the extreme.

Most of the durable infrastructure, and most solid buildings in the US, are those constructed by the Federal government. That's simply a fact. The throwaway, short-term mentality is fundamental to private enterprise.

Where else in the world is this sort of list of space related companies popping up? You might call them unproven, but elsewhere there aren't even the companies to call unproven!

Pointing out a bad idea is not generally accepted is quite the opposite of establishing its credibility. Listing a bunch of companies doesn't help either because economy of scale is fundamental to space industry like no other.

The point is economic reusability and sustainability. Clearly the Soviet and NASA programs were unsustainable, that is proven by history and was not their primary focus. Now, private companies are doing what was before only the domain of governments, and global superpowers at that! Sustainability is part of their business plans... I was referencing an economically viable reusable spacecraft. Both governments unequivocally failed!

You are equivocating on your usage of the word "sustainability". NASA and the USSR both found reusable launchers are not really a great deal because the refit costs are so high. This is a technical, not economic, distinction.

NASA put a man on the moon and both powers sent men into space for years. It's 2015 and private companies have yet to do what the Gemini program did 60 years ago. So, no, they aren't "doing what superpowers did." Defunding due to lack of public interest is not the same as "failure" in either the technical or economic sense.

I suppose I should make this clear, are you arguing that newspace companies should not accept CCDev funding or else they are doomed to failure because any amount of government funding means their business model is $hit?

I also don't consider government contracts as help, they are paying for services provided.

People on welfare also are happy to tell you they "work" for their money, which is often a condition of welfare. I trust you as an American soldier also think you "work" for a living as opposed to getting a paycheck and exorbitant benefits (and yes they are, most Americans don't get a salary OR benefits) because Congress says so?

My argument is the former precisely. I think markets are a great way of allocating resources, but the free market is a sham, and you have aptly demonstrate why this is so.
 
The point is that privatized space industry isn't going to become a self-supporting industry. Your claim is speculative, and the abundant resources available to venture capital these days and the fact it hasn't happened yet indicate your prediction is unlikely in the extreme.

Except it is happening, you are just saying they will fail today because government has failed in the past.



Most of the durable infrastructure, and most solid buildings in the US, are those constructed by the Federal government. That's simply a fact. The throwaway, short-term mentality is fundamental to private enterprise.

Does this mean airlines and car companies are not self supporting?

Do contracts by the government for work = subsidies?


Pointing out a bad idea is not generally accepted is quite the opposite of establishing its credibility. Listing a bunch of companies doesn't help either because economy of scale is fundamental to space industry like no other.

Right now whether its bad idea or not is totally your opinion, and in no way supported by facts. Legitimate legislative and administrative bodies, as well as successful businessmen and entrepreneurs think its a good idea, and have put money and time forward in order to support that idea. There will be failures, as within any industry, but it is far far from proven as a bad idea.

You are equivocating on your usage of the word "sustainability". NASA and the USSR both found reusable launchers are not really a great deal because the refit costs are so high. This is a technical, not economic, distinction.

Except again that is your opinion. What you posted only means that NASA and the USSR were not able to reduce their turnaround costs. That does not mean all other efforts are doomed to failure, nor does that prove it is a technical issue with the concept, only with their designs.

NASA put a man on the moon and both powers sent men into space for years. It's 2015 and private companies have yet to do what the Gemini program did 60 years ago. So, no, they aren't "doing what superpowers did." Defunding due to lack of public interest is not the same as "failure" in either the technical or economic sense.

It is failure no matter how you slice it, if it is not sustained. It is stagnation if it has not improved. US Government spaceflight has failed after a period of stagnation (at least until we see proven capabilities for the SLS of which I am skeptical of budget wise), and Russian spaceflight is stagnating currently, using much the same technology it has used for decades. Commercial spaceflight has advanced though, and it is in the nature of business in a competitive environment to continuously improve.

People on welfare also are happy to tell you they "work" for their money, which is often a condition of welfare. I trust you as an American soldier also think you "work" for a living as opposed to getting a paycheck and exorbitant benefits (and yes they are, most Americans don't get a salary OR benefits) because Congress says so?


Do you consider government contracts for services either to the ISS or launching military satellites as 'Welfare'?

My argument is the former precisely. I think markets are a great way of allocating resources, but the free market is a sham, and you have aptly demonstrate why this is so.

You didn't answer my question, so I will rephrase..
You are arguing to kill the market in its crib because it cannot stand on its own 2 feet from birth, is this correct? It sounds like it to me, and is horribly pessimistic and short-sighted.

I'm just glad policy makers think differently.
 
Do you consider government contracts for services either to the ISS or launching military satellites as 'Welfare'?

Yes.

Your entire argument is an apologia for the corporate welfare kleptocracy. Nothing else.
 
Yes.

Your entire argument is an apologia for the corporate welfare kleptocracy. Nothing else.

that broadens the definition of welfare to the extent where it is meaningless, as the company is filling a need, rather than receiving an uncompensated cash gift from the state. A government is considered a legitimate customer the world over.

Thanks for the clarification and staying reasonably civil with no ad hominems, it s a rarity for the site, I think we are done here as we fundamentally disagree on definitions.
 
that broadens the definition of welfare to the extent where it is meaningless, as the company is filling a need, rather than receiving an uncompensated cash gift from the state. A government is considered a legitimate customer the world over.

As I have said, this applies to most forms of individual welfare as well. Most individual forms of welfare require token efforts that are not supported by market demand.

Thanks for the clarification and staying reasonably civil with no ad hominems, it s a rarity for the site, I think we are done.

yw, gg
 
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