Javed Ghamidi - Fauj ka bayania

[airmarshal]

Its a good series of programs on narrative promoted by army to perpetuate colonization of Pakistan by its generals.

 

[Silverblaze]

He makes good arguments but made it too complicated. He should have simply said that colonial laws should have been changed after British left which weren't. Which included everything from land to bureaucratic to army reforms.

Long story short. Pakistan army establishment will not de-link itself from politics. Lessons they learnt after 71 were quite different. They think they need to have more protracted involvement in political matters.

All political parties should be limited to regions and should not allowed to be national ones and even within those regions their should be rival groups constantly fighting and occasionally calling truce when establishment wants.

Its like running an insurgency and counter insurgency. Thats why you continue to see political parties popping up. For Awami league it was PPP, for PPP it was IJI later PML-n and MQM
for PML-N it was PML-Q and JI and later PTI for MQM it was MQM haqiqi and then for PTI it is TLP and PDM.

Now the most important point. Establishment itself has miserably failed to govern Pakistan like Brazilian, South Korean, Taiwanese, Thai, Turkish and even phillipines despite receiving US military and economy aid. Pakistani military regimes should be compared with other military regimes which is not done.

Except Ayub Khans development projects nothing was done. Even Ayub didnt fix Pakistan's structural problems and didnt introduce substantial reforms and the conclusion is without external help we are bankrupt and a corrupt regime is governing this country.

 

[HAIDER]

Its a good series of programs on narrative promoted by army to perpetuate colonization of Pakistan by its generals.

Colonial mindset: We relocate all precious resources back to London because their home was
" London". A foreign land. I think London is still our home in the subconscious of our politicians and elites.

 

[Crimson Blue]

Long story short. Pakistan army establishment will not de-link itself from politics. Lessons they learnt after 71 were quite different. They think they need to have more protracted involvement in political matters.

All political parties should be limited to regions and should not allowed to be national ones and even within those regions their should be rival groups constantly fighting and occasionally calling truce when establishment wants.

Wow.
I actually never thought that army might have learnt different lessons form 1971. For them, win of Awami League in 1970 elections was a failure to begin with that they tried to fix starting from March 1971 & kept trying till December 1971. After that, they made sure no political party (except from lap dogs) would ever become dominant again. This formula was perfected in 1984 elections which gave rise to the power of Electables/Winning Horses against the political parties. Its easier for army to control individual Winning Horse in election.

Now I think about it, Haroon Rashid mentioned in one of his show that main lesson Pakistan army learned form 1970 elections is to never hold a free & fair election again where you cannot control the results. And that's why Bajwa opposed electronic voting.

Thanks @airmarshal & @Silverblaze

 

[Silverblaze]

Wow.
I actually never thought that army might have learnt different lessons form 1971. For them, win of Awami League in 1970 elections was a failure to begin with that they tried to fix starting from March 1971 & kept trying till December 1971. After that, they made sure no political party (except from lap dogs) would ever become dominant again. This formula was perfected in 1984 elections which gave rise to the power of Electables/Winning Horses against the political parties. Its easier for army to control individual Winning Horse in election.

Now I think about it, Haroon Rashid mentioned in one of his show that main lesson Pakistan army learned form 1970 elections is to never hold a free & fair election again where you cannot control the results. And that's why Bajwa opposed electronic voting.

Thanks @airmarshal & @Silverblaze

Thanks for the reply.

History points to the conclusion that you have reached. If you observe, every commission report that includes even a hint of some involvement of the establishment is fiercely stopped or discredited. This is done because the feeling is that any accountability will make us weak.

This is the exact same thinking that the british indian army had.

How is that half the country was gone and not a single peon was held responsible?

Another thing worth noting is that sadly Pakistan military is having problems exactly where the british army used to have problems regarding insurgency and rebellion. North West, Balochistan, Sindh and Bengal. Bengal army was largely disbanded after 1857.

I sincerely hope, someone within the army reforms this organization and make it a true defender free from british colonial influence that represents the aspirations of its own people and does not treat the country as a chess board as the hindutvadis have managed to do.

Furthermore, people may not like it but I dont mind a military govt if they introduce reforms like many military regimes have done across the globe. Pakistan establishment does not do that. There is no actual growth. The moment US military and economic aid dries up we are bankrupt time and again.

 

[Crimson Blue]

Thanks for the reply.

History points to the conclusion that you have reached........

You are right about all your points but.....
.... the light bulb moment for me was to realize that army learned a different lesson from 1971.

See, almost all of the political analyst written and spoken that military establishment has not leant any lesson from Dhaka fall of 1971. Now I realized that its not true, they have actually learned a lesson from 1971 but a very different lesson than rest of us would expect.

Tragedy of 1971 just made military establishment to have more and tighter control over all aspects of management of Pakistan, to prevent another 1971 ...... ah the irony.

 

[SaadH]

You are right about all your points but.....
.... the light bulb moment for me was to realize that army learned a different lesson from 1971.

See, almost all of the political analyst written and spoken that military establishment has not leant any lesson from Dhaka fall of 1971. Now I realized that its not true, they have actually learned a lesson from 1971 but a very different lesson than rest of us would expect.

Tragedy of 1971 just made military establishment to have more and tighter control over all aspects of management of Pakistan, to prevent another 1971 ...... ah the irony.

Another lesson they learnt was that an economically independent Pakistan with a thriving industrial base is an existential threat to their power. They made a calculation that serving colonial interests so that the master will throw just enough bones their way, allowing them to run Pakistan on an economic fringe, i.e. minimally viable, which is much more preferable an outcome then developing Pakistan into a modern democratic nation with an independent foreign policy outlook.

 

[Silverblaze]

History points to the conclusion that you have reached. If you observe, every commission report that includes even a hint of some involvement of the establishment is fiercely stopped or discredited. This is done because the feeling is that any accountability will make us weak.

This is the exact same thinking that the british indian army had.

How is that half the country was gone and not a single peon was held responsible?

Another thing worth noting is that sadly Pakistan military is having problems exactly where the british army used to have problems regarding insurgency and rebellion. North West, Balochistan, Sindh and Bengal. Bengal army was largely disbanded after 1857.

I sincerely hope, someone within the army reforms this organization and make it a true defender free from british colonial influence that represents the aspirations of its own people and does not treat the country as a chess board as the hindutvadis have managed to do.

Furthermore, people may not like it but I dont mind a military govt if they introduce reforms like many military regimes have done across the globe. Pakistan establishment does not do that. There is no actual growth. The moment US military and economic aid dries up we are bankrupt time and again.

You are right about all your points but.....
.... the light bulb moment for me was to realize that army learned a different lesson from 1971.

See, almost all of the political analyst written and spoken that military establishment has not leant any lesson from Dhaka fall of 1971. Now I realized that its not true, they have actually learned a lesson from 1971 but a very different lesson than rest of us would expect.

Tragedy of 1971 just made military establishment to have more and tighter control over all aspects of management of Pakistan, to prevent another 1971 ...... ah the irony.

true, actually establishment intelligence informed yahya that it will be a hung parliament so nothing to worry. Bhola Cyclone and sadly injustice for years and rigging in E Pak culminated into a landslide victory for Awami League.

Then they started to pit bhutto ( who just wanted power at any cost) and mujeeb against each other. When things did not cool down, military operation commenced against the advice of stalwarts like Vice Admiral Ahsan who said they wanted to teach bengalis a lesson.

This is exactly what is happening today. PDM was pushed to take down IK. When IK resisted and went to the people ... well you know what happened next.

Sadly, this will not change unless a change is done from within.

 

[airmarshal]

Wow.
I actually never thought that army might have learnt different lessons form 1971. For them, win of Awami League in 1970 elections was a failure to begin with that they tried to fix starting from March 1971 & kept trying till December 1971. After that, they made sure no political party (except from lap dogs) would ever become dominant again. This formula was perfected in 1984 elections which gave rise to the power of Electables/Winning Horses against the political parties. Its easier for army to control individual Winning Horse in election.

Now I think about it, Haroon Rashid mentioned in one of his show that main lesson Pakistan army learned form 1970 elections is to never hold a free & fair election again where you cannot control the results. And that's why Bajwa opposed electronic voting.

Thanks @airmarshal & @Silverblaze

I agree.

The military is determined to interfere in politics and will never allow free and fair elections. We have been producing these snakes in PMA modeled on Sandhurst. This colonial mindset will not be dealt with patience. It will be dealt with confrontation. Naming and shaming is the start.

The people must realize country belongs to them. They are the owners, not some generals. Unless people realize, we will not be free from this yoke of colonialism. Military want the status quo.

If military was honest to the nation, it would have realized in 7 months what people want. It wants to keep the nation enslaved and has no regard for public opinion. The new COAS continues to bad mouth Imran Khan in officer meetings. This behavior will not change unless we the people realize that its us who will be the rulers, not some general who get his salary and benefits from our taxes.