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Japanese and South Korean fighter planes

Err, except the highest rated version of WS-10G (what you refer to WS-15) is also rated at 35.000 lbf. So, if that's good enough for Chinese 5h gen, why wouldn't it be for Japanese?

The plan , i emphasize plan, is for 40.000lbf in the final version and if we take size comparison between ATD-X and J-20 the extra 5.000 lbf is lost on the assumed bigger weight of the J-20.
Nope, wrong again. The WS-15 goal is 40,500 lbf and we're talking about engine. The weight of the aircraft has nothing to do with the 40,500 lbf of the engine. It has to do with thrust-to-weight ratio which should be somewhere around 8.0 or 9.0, enough for supercruise. In fact, the design of J-20 even allow the lighter power of WS-10B to supercruise but we want more power. More power = better for J-20! :yahoo:
 
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My statement is still correct. Japan still haven't produce a 4th aircraft on their own, yet. And people expect them to jump to 5th gen without us having skepticism.

You are entitled to the scepticism. Noone is taking that away from you. And in the post i quoted, you talked about engines how they cant produce 4th gen. engine while you have been linked a pic of an engine you then later proclaimed as 4th gen., now you talk about aircraft.

Nevertheless, this post is correct, they haven't produced a 4th gen. fighter on their own. In the previous thread i also linked you statements that they won't be doing 5th gen. alone either. They will receive help from the US, because US feels obliged to help since it denies the F-22.
 
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My statement is still correct. Japan still haven't produce a 4th aircraft on their own, yet. And people expect them to jump to 5th gen without us having skepticism.

Turkey is also planning to do the same, jumping directly to 5th gen., although without an engine.

I think Japan can do it, even ahead of scheduled service entry year of 2027.
 
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Lifetime or more accurately MTBO (mean time between overhaul) of WS-10 please. If it's on par with Russian engines, then yes, you are not in the same league.
China still imports turbine blades from Russia.



Is China About to Get Its Military Jet Engine Program Off the Ground?

Also, super duper Chinese tech, while negotiations for Su-35 are going on.



Also, more weapons to copy:




China to Get Russian Su-35 Jets in 2014
Anything coming out of Russia avionics expert should be taken with a grain of salt. Only "official deal" can indicate how much we still rely on Russia. Last I check, we haven't import anything major from Russia for over 10 years. The Su-35 is still debated wildly. Until China fields the Su-35, then I won't believe in it. Even if we field the Su-35, it does not mean we will use the engine for J-20 as I have already explained the design is different and electronic program is not suit.
 
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Nope, wrong again. The WS-15 goal is 40,500 lbf and we're talking about engine. The weight of the aircraft has nothing to do with the 40,500 lbf of the engine. It has to do with thrust-to-weight ratio which should be somewhere around 8.0 or 9.0, enough for supercruise. In fact, the design of J-20 even allow the lighter power of WS-10B to supercruise but we want more power. More power = better for J-20! :yahoo:

But it has to do with how the plane handles doesn't it?

If a thing is lighter, it can be powered by weaker engine to achieve the same stats as something heavier which has a bigger engine. Logic 101, imho the comment you quoted is understandable to everyone, at least my meaning of it.
Don't really know why you quoted it and started with "Wrong again". It's not wrong and where was in wrong in the first place?

Anyhow, i got to go, will be back!
 
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Turkey is also planning to do the same, jumping directly to 5th gen., although without an engine.

I think Japan can do it, even ahead of scheduled service entry year of 2027.
I explained many many times already that planning and actual deploying for service is entirely different ball game. China/Russia can plan and say they aim for 6th gen and skipping 5th gen, but that is not technically feasible as the experience is needed to make a stealth supercruise aircraft. Now, if Japan/Turkey got help from USA, then yes they can skip but like I said, I seriously doubt the USA will provide substantial aid in their program for ego and security reasons.
 
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But it has to do with how the plane handles doesn't it?

If a thing is lighter, it can be powered by weaker engine to achieve the same stats as something heavier which has a bigger engine. Logic 101, imho the comment you quoted is understandable to everyone, at least my meaning of it.
Don't really know why you quoted it and started with "Wrong again". It's not wrong and where was in wrong in the first place?

Anyhow, i got to go, will be back!
Yes, the J-20 is a HUGE bird and needs heavy power for maneuverability. This is why we need WS-15.

As for the Japan aircraft, it looks to be small to medium size. Some people said it is design as an interceptor aircraft and not fit for combat. But I don't know. Everything is speculated with the Japanese ATD-X because it is only in the "drawing board phase". Things can changed once they research more, hit a wall, overcome the wall, or whatever, but it will change their "plan". This, I am very sure. It happens to every 5th program.
 
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You are entitled to the scepticism. Noone is taking that away from you. And in the post i quoted, you talked about engines how they cant produce 4th gen. engine while you have been linked a pic of an engine you then later proclaimed as 4th gen., now you talk about aircraft.

Nevertheless, this post is correct, they haven't produced a 4th gen. fighter on their own. In the previous thread i also linked you statements that they won't be doing 5th gen. alone either. They will receive help from the US, because US feels obliged to help since it denies the F-22.
I didn't say they can't produce 4th gen, I said they haven't produce 4th gen fighter on their own. It is not hard to understand what I said.

You are entitled to the scepticism. Noone is taking that away from you. And in the post i quoted, you talked about engines how they cant produce 4th gen. engine while you have been linked a pic of an engine you then later proclaimed as 4th gen., now you talk about aircraft.

Nevertheless, this post is correct, they haven't produced a 4th gen. fighter on their own. In the previous thread i also linked you statements that they won't be doing 5th gen. alone either. They will receive help from the US, because US feels obliged to help since it denies the F-22.
I didn't say they can't produce 4th gen, I said they haven't produce 4th gen fighter on their own. It is not hard to understand what I said.

You are entitled to the scepticism. Noone is taking that away from you. And in the post i quoted, you talked about engines how they cant produce 4th gen. engine while you have been linked a pic of an engine you then later proclaimed as 4th gen., now you talk about aircraft.

Nevertheless, this post is correct, they haven't produced a 4th gen. fighter on their own. In the previous thread i also linked you statements that they won't be doing 5th gen. alone either. They will receive help from the US, because US feels obliged to help since it denies the F-22.
I didn't say they can't produce 4th gen, I said they haven't produce 4th gen fighter on their own. It is not hard to understand what I said.

If the USA helps, it would be under tech license. In that case, Japan cannot export their fighter without US's approval. In other words, the fighter would be for domestic use. Also the USA won't destroy the F-35 program to help Japan fielding their own 5th. They still want to sell the F-35 to offset the development cost.
 
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I didn't say they can't produce 4th gen, I said they haven't produce 4th gen fighter on their own. It is not hard to understand what I said.

Not sure which part of my post you are adressing this to, because for the fighter i said:

Nevertheless, this post is correct, they haven't produced a 4th gen. fighter on their own.

For the engine, you said they haven't produced an engine for 4th gen. fighter yet, then you were presented with one and you switched to talking about airplanes.
Anyhow, since i'm a good guy i'll attribute this misunderstanding to you bad command over English language....or maybe you got confused with all the 4th, 5th gen. numbers, who knows...


If the USA helps, it would be under tech license. In that case, Japan cannot export their fighter without US's approval. In other words, the fighter would be for domestic use. Also the USA won't destroy the F-35 program to help Japan fielding their own 5th. They still want to sell the F-35 to offset the development cost.

It's not written anywhere they need to be selling it.
 
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cross posted from another thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey...tion-programs-news-update-30.html#post4754483

TFX is the Turkish 5th gen. fighter program:
TFX (Turkey) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There was supposed to be a joint venture with Korean KFX, but the plan did not work out:
KAI KF-X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And there is a Japanese program:
Mitsubishi ATD-X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
which has its own indigenous engine: IHI XF5-1
http://www.mod.go.jp/trdi/research/gaibuhyouka/pdf/XF5-H21.pdf
http://www.defence.pk/forums/middle...outh-korean-fighter-planes-6.html#post4747970

I am compiling available info on Korean and Japanese fighter programs in this thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/middle-east-africa/276175-japanese-south-korean-fighter-planes.html

I was wondering if the 3 programs could be combined and produce 3 different models (Japanese are in the process of removing export restriction of weapons systems from their constitution):

1. A twin engine 5th gen. fighter that will be similar to existing F-22 raptor or planned Japanese ATD-X or Turkish TFX-C200 with Japanese engine XF5-xx, that will be priced around $100 million
2. A twin engine 5th gen. fighter that will be similar to existing F-35 or planned Korean KFX or Turkish TFX-C100 with a lower powered version of Japanese engine XF5-xx and lower cost avionics, that will be priced around $50 million
3. UCAV similar to X-47B or based on above No. 2, but with a single XF5-xx engine
Northrop Grumman X-47B - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All of the above 3 fighters will be networked and work together in battle field, together with AWACS type airborne radar.

The above program could become a standard platform for a wide variety of countries and compete with similar platforms from China and Russia in quality and similar platforms from US/EU in price.

Japan, South Korea and Turkey would be technology partners, sharing development and manufacturing work. Indonesia and GCC states would guarantee a future market and share financing of R&D cost.

With this new platform and consortium, dependence could be reduced on US/EU, Russia or China based weapons systems, for many smaller less developed countries of the world and thus removing political restrictions for export of leading edge weapons systems.
 
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TFX (Turkey) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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tfx_200-tr.jpg


P1040473.jpg


tkfx_sc_ori_tr.jpg


image00558.jpg


tfx_3-tr1.jpg


Turkish_NewF-X.jpg
 
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ECONOMY - Turkey holding rival talks on aircraft with Koreans, Swedes

Turkey holding rival talks on aircraft with Koreans, Swedes
ANKARA – Hürriyet Daily News | 8/22/2011 12:00:00 AM | ÜMİT ENGİNSOY

Besides an ongoing plan to develop a fighter jet program with the US or Europe, Turkey is seeking to broaden its fleet with a second option. South Korea’s KAI and Sweden’s Saab are the two possible partners, according to a Turkish procurement official. Turkey is supposed to take part in the design of the possible project

Turkey recently had held separate talks with aeronautical officials from South Korea and Sweden for possible cooperation in the design, development and production of a new fighter aircraft in the next decade, a senior procurement official said at the weekend.

“The companies are South Korea’s Korea Aerospace Industries [KAI] and Sweden’s Saab,” the official said.

KAI is the manufacturer of several military and civilian aircraft and satellites and is planning to produce the fighter aircraft KF-X. Saab is the maker of the multi-role fighter JAS 39 Gripen.
Turkey, whose present fighter fleet is made up of U.S.-made aircraft, also plans to buy the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II planes, a next-generation, multinational program also led by the United States.

But Turkish officials privately say they want another future jet fighter to be developed with a country or countries other than the United States, in an effort to reduce the country’s dependence on Washington.

Most of Turkey’s present fleet of F-16 fighters, being modernized by U.S. firm Lockheed Martin, and the planned future F-35s are open to U.S. influence. Only its older F-4 aircraft, modernized by Israel, and its oldest F-16s, being modernized by Turkey itself, technologically are free from this influence, the officials said. But these older aircraft are expected to be decommissioned around 2020.

“Turkey wants part of its fighter aircraft fleet to remain outside the technological and other influence of the United States. It believes this scheme would better fit its national interests,” said one Turkish defense analyst.

So as part of efforts to select a new fighter for the Turkish Air Force, Turkish Aerospace Industries, or TAI, has been tasked with determining the specifications of the new fighter. It has until the end of next year to finish the process.

Turkey in the past has assembled and jointly manufactured some military aircraft, but this is the first time the country’s developing defense industry fully will be involved in the design of a complex weapons system, such as a jet fighter.

The country last year held an initial round of talks with South Korea’s KAI on the matter. But the South Koreans then offered only a 20 percent share of the project to Turkey, with another 20 percent going to Indonesia, opting for 60 percent of the program for themselves. Turkey wants an equal share in the development of a new plane and was quick to reject the offer.

“Now the South Koreans are coming much closer to the idea of equal ownership, and this is positive,” said the Turkish procurement official. “But there are still many more things to be discussed with them.”

In the meantime, Turkey continues to be interested in rival programs, and the recent talks with Saab officials reflect this situation, the procurement official said. “Sweden also is a potential partner for us.”

In addition to KAI and Saab, a consortium of European companies, also continues efforts to include Turkey in its program for the Eurofighter Typhoon project. This consortium is Eurofighter, whose members include Italian, German, British and Spanish firms.

Italy’s deputy defense minister said in May that the pan-European Eurofighter Typhoon fighter aircraft was the only viable alternative to U.S. planes in this category, urging Turkey to join the ambitious European-led defense program.

“The Eurofighter is the only alternative to U.S. aircraft, and provides a great relief to world countries,” Guido Crosetto said in Istanbul on the sidelines of the International Defense Industry Fair 2011.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/Default.aspx?pageID=238&nID=51642&NewsCatID=483

Turkey’s $50 billion jet program in question
Burak BEKDİL

Turkey must spend nearly $50 billion if it goes ahead with its plans to build and buy 200 locally built fighter jets and acquire 100 more F-35s from an US arms maker. And that amount doesn’t even include the cost of engines for the Turkish fighter

When Ankara plans to build its own weapon systems or just buy them off-the-shelf, it plans big and no one seems to be worried. But the Turkish ambitions to build a “made-in-Turkey” fighter aircraft and buy scores of the new generation, multinational combat jet F-35 may go beyond Turkey’s financing capacity.

Defense industry officials estimate that building eight prototypes for what will become the Turkish national fighter would cost Ankara over $10 billion. “Any figure in the range of $11 billion to $13 billion would be realistic,” a senior official familiar with the program said.

His guess for the final Turkish order if the entire program succeeded was nearly 200 aircraft. “We target $100 million per aircraft,” he said. “I think 200 is a realistic figure given our aging fleet of aircraft that will phase out in the decades ahead.”

That means Turkey will have to spend $31 billion to $33 billion for the Turkish fighter it hopes to design, develop and manufacture. But independent analysts say this may be an over-optimistic calculation.

“We know that Turkey’s plans do not include developing an engine for the Turkish fighter. Moreover, I think, $100 million per aircraft is too optimistic given Turkey’s technological constraints, its high-cost industry and the fact that a newcomer [to the fighter industry] like Turkey will always suffer setbacks and trials and errors during the entire process.”

Turkey has been in talks with Sweden’s Saab for pre-conceptual design work for the country’s first national fighter jet. Saab is the maker of the JAS 39 Gripen, a lightweight single-engine multirole fighter. It was designed to replace the Saab 35 Draken and 37 Viggen in the Swedish Air Force (Flygvapnet). The Gripen is powered by the Volvo-Flygmotor RM12 engine, a derivative of the General Electric F404, and has a top speed of Mach 2.

100 more from US

Turkey hopes that under its fighter jet program, dubbed the TF-X, it can fly the Turkish fighter by 2023, the centennial of the republic. Turkey’s aerospace powerhouse, TAI, has been working on three different designs, and Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan is expected to decide on whether to go ahead with the plan at a defense industry committee meeting later this year.

Meanwhile, Turkey, whose present fighter fleet is made up of U.S.-made aircraft, also plans to buy the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, a next-generation, multinational program also led by the United States.

Most of Turkey’s fleet of F-16 fighters, being modernized by Lockheed Martin, and the planned future F-35s are open to U.S. technological influence. Only its older F-4 aircraft, modernized by Israel, and its oldest F-16s, being modernized by Turkey itself, are free from this influence. But these older aircraft are expected to be decommissioned around 2020.

Turkey’s defense procurement officials have said Ankara intends to buy around 100 F-35s. Defense analysts estimate the cost of the entire JSF program to Turkey to be around $16 billion, bringing Turkey’s fighter budget up to $50 billion together with the TF-X.
 
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