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Japan Caves to China on Senkaku Island Dispute

Whatever small advantage you're able to get from Vietnam has been more than nullified when you drove Russia into China's arms. Thanks, by the way. :lol:

Russia, China Sign $400 Billion Gas Deal After Decade of Talks - Bloomberg

Russian public think USA is No.1 enemy – poll — RT Russian politics

China, Russia sign $25 billion local currency swap| Reuters

Not sure to what you are referring. Russia has been America's adversary for 70 years (or depending on how one is counting, 90 years), so China's embrace of Russia is merely a continuation of the status quo.

Moreover, China put the screws to Russia on this deal, which is only marginally profitable for Russia (Analysis - Russia-China gas deal creates benchmark for global market| Reuters ), so Russia is hardly grateful to China for buying its gas barely above cost. Russia was desperate, and China took advantage.

On the other hand, Vietnam has been hostile to the US for 50 years, but thanks to China, our relationship is growing warmer rapidly. This, even while Vietnam's leadership is overtly pro-China, but China couldn't help itself in discrediting that leadership.

In any case, I'll take that trade: we lose something that we never had anyway, in return for turning a former enemy.
 
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The way i see it, Japan is just trying to woo China in order for a possible meeting between Abe and Xi to take place. Relations has been strained between both nations and Japan is currently feeling the pain. Nothing fruitful will come out of it because Japan insist the island belong to them from the start. Also China isn't that delusional to think Japan could switch side in the future and become our ally despite our historical relations and the cultural link between these two East Asian powers.
Abe's current objectives are to quench the hostility, restore dialogues and ties as Japan cannot ignore the importance of China or the Chinese market. For that he is now willing to make some "concessions"
 
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Not sure to what you are referring. Russia has been America's adversary for 70 years (or depending on how one is counting, 90 years), so China's embrace of Russia is merely a continuation of the status quo.

Forget about the reset between Clinton and Lavrov? That was a very possible strategic turning point (and a victory for the US).

Russia-US relations reset ‘impossible’: PM Medvedev

Moreover, China put the screws to Russia on this deal, which is only marginally profitable for Russia (Analysis - Russia-China gas deal creates benchmark for global market| Reuters ), so Russia is hardly grateful to China for buying its gas barely above cost. Russia was desperate, and China took advantage.

No taking advantage here; that's just your lame effort to cast doubt on some Chinese and Russian readers' mind.

Sino-Russian cooperation calls for balancing interests

Some Western countries, headed by the United States, frequently threaten economic sanctions against Russia to achieve their political goals, only to find the Kremlin composed at countering every single Western threat. As Russia's "de-dolarization" continues, the country is resorting to different international reserve currencies and a different payment system. Russia is also seeking new trade partners and trying to establish new free trade zones to minimize the negative impact, if any, from traditional partners such as the United States and the European Union.

The decision to schedule Premier Li's Russia visit between his trips to Germany and Italy was risky, because tensions between the EU and Russia had already made the elite in Berlin and Rome nervous. Any comments on the tension could stir up resentment either from Russia or the European Union.

In response to the tense Russia-EU relationship, most state leaders would try to avoid meeting both sides at the same time, but the Chinese premier's purposefully planned trip is evidence of China's successful diplomacy, particularly under the "new type of relationship among major powers." In the "new type of relationship," China-Russia and China-EU cooperation does not go against a third party, meaning that there is no need to choose sides.

There is no twist of knife here. There is an agreement that mutual prosperity does outweigh mutual hatred on an issue that can altogether be shelved conveniently and with no cost of political capital on both sides.

I personally welcome the move by both sides and hope that the territorial issue will be put in the back-burner for the later generations to solve.

It is time to do business and bring East Asia to its rightful place in the world, thereby bringing down the decade-old undesired Western hegemony that has so far the underlying cause of most disputes and conflicts in the region.

Finally, a rational move from Abe. China won't twist the knife, IMO - China just wants to re-shelf the issue and go back to making money as usual. Remember, it was Ishihara who started the whole mess. That Japanese equivalent of a Holocaust denier was the one who wanted to purchase the islands in the first place thereby igniting the whole mess. He's rich and could not care less if Japan on the whole suffers from his idiocy. As long as he scores some "nationalism" points. Western "analysts" conveniently forget that when they write articles about the dispute.
 
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Not sure to what you are referring. Russia has been America's adversary for 70 years (or depending on how one is counting, 90 years), so China's embrace of Russia is merely a continuation of the status quo.

Moreover, China put the screws to Russia on this deal, which is only marginally profitable for Russia (Analysis - Russia-China gas deal creates benchmark for global market| Reuters ), so Russia is hardly grateful to China for buying its gas barely above cost. Russia was desperate, and China took advantage.

On the other hand, Vietnam has been hostile to the US for 50 years, but thanks to China, our relationship is growing warmer rapidly. This, even while Vietnam's leadership is overtly pro-China, but China couldn't help itself in discrediting that leadership.

In any case, I'll take that trade: we lose something that we never had anyway, in return for turning a former enemy.

hardly the whole picture, perhaps Russia was never your friend, but as it stands Russia is more friend than foe to us and a constant thorn in US' plans. Unless the goal was how can we piss off one more world power and let that country distract an already thinned force to supply additional capital and troops.

You been dealing with China too long, you think you can do the same to Russia as you are doing to us? We can withstand it and continue the game, for we are playing the long game, we won't make a move, not for a decade at least. But Russia won't take it.

Different countries different plans, we have different plans for every nation, for Philippines we use Coast guard to take islands, for Vietnam we force on the table, for Japan, we let them come to us, for Indonesia we let them be for now, for Thailand, we support them, for Cambodia and Laos, we build infrastructure and play on their hatred of Vietnam, for Malaysia, ok them like Indonesia we actually have the same plan, finally for Korea we continue to cooperate and build on something that we had for thousands of years.

US is just using the containment in different degrees, worst to ISIS, bad to Russia and ok to China, but containment only works if the country inside can be contained. I feel the 60% gig was to get China to make a move, but Obama didn't count on the patience we have with the whole China Sea situation.


Vietnam in the end won't go the American way, they are just using America to get more from us. If they really wanted to abandon China for America, well, then they wouldn't be Vietnamese, they understand the Asia dynamic, once they get the deal they can accept, and so it will end this America honey moon.

Keep in mind China is the top trading partner for ASEAN, and the top trading nation for most of them, now America is not going to displace us, and that is only going to increase as time goes on.


So in essence, you created one neutral nation in Russia into an enemy and is gaining nothing substantial in Asia, for as much as America likes to pretend it is an Asia power, it is not. Even Japan must come to us, and the reason isn't because they like us better than you. One of the reasons we can't really make too much headway into Mexico, cause we are not an American power.

If you feel temporary limited friendship with a minor nation that's just waiting for the best deal, and in exchange, alienates a world power to be a constant pain in your side is a good deal then yea.

BTW, I never said Russia was a friend, I just mean they will in effect have the same objective without the alliance, way more secure in my opinion than a piece of paper anyways.
 
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Not sure to what you are referring. Russia has been America's adversary for 70 years (or depending on how one is counting, 90 years), so China's embrace of Russia is merely a continuation of the status quo.

Moreover, China put the screws to Russia on this deal, which is only marginally profitable for Russia (Analysis - Russia-China gas deal creates benchmark for global market| Reuters ), so Russia is hardly grateful to China for buying its gas barely above cost. Russia was desperate, and China took advantage.

On the other hand, Vietnam has been hostile to the US for 50 years, but thanks to China, our relationship is growing warmer rapidly. This, even while Vietnam's leadership is overtly pro-China, but China couldn't help itself in discrediting that leadership.

In any case, I'll take that trade: we lose something that we never had anyway, in return for turning a former enemy.

I could make the exact same argument for China-Vietnam relations. They were never good to begin with.

China and Vietnam were adversaries several thousand years ago.

Chinese domination of Vietnam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

China and Vietnam were adversaries during the Cold War.

Battle of the Paracel Islands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sino-Vietnamese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

China and Vietnam are adversaries now. Nothing has changed. At the end of the day, Vietnam is a small barking dog. They can't do anything of substance to harm China. China's Nine-Dash Line remains in the SCS and we're taking that oil and gas. Being friends with Vietnam isn't going to help China get that oil and gas any faster, so why bother?

The Russian situation is different. Remember this in 2009?

clintonapapapapap.jpg


That was your last best chance to contain China. The US has now completely derailed its 'reset' with Russia. Any hope of using a nuclear Russia to contain China in Central Asia is gone. Any hope of restricting Russia's vast natural resources from going into China is gone. Any hope of convincing Russia to stick with the Petrodollar is gone. Your mismanagement of the Ukraine situation is the best gift you could have ever given China.
 
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Not sure to what you are referring. Russia has been America's adversary for 70 years (or depending on how one is counting, 90 years), so China's embrace of Russia is merely a continuation of the status quo.

Moreover, China put the screws to Russia on this deal, which is only marginally profitable for Russia (Analysis - Russia-China gas deal creates benchmark for global market| Reuters ), so Russia is hardly grateful to China for buying its gas barely above cost. Russia was desperate, and China took advantage.

On the other hand, Vietnam has been hostile to the US for 50 years, but thanks to China, our relationship is growing warmer rapidly. This, even while Vietnam's leadership is overtly pro-China, but China couldn't help itself in discrediting that leadership.

In any case, I'll take that trade: we lose something that we never had anyway, in return for turning a former enemy.

Not entirely true. I recommend a book: "The Last Empire" By Serhii Plokhy. It's thick but a fun read and it really details the last days of the USSR, much of it from Gorbachev's perspective. You'd probably like it. After the fall of the USSR, Russia was quite amenable to American friendship. Bush Sr. and Gorbachev and then Yeltsin had friendly relations and Russia was very pro-America. During and after the attempted coup by Soviet hardliners, the Russian populace viewed the US as a savior as well as an inspiration for what "could be."

But America kept on encroaching on Russia's traditional spheres of influence (the Ukraine to name an obvious example)- this over the course of a decade -after promising not to. So reneging on a gentleman's agreement to avoid meddling in Russian affairs and domestic politics - namely Bush Sr's and subsequent presidents triumphalist crowing about how Russia was "vanquished" quickly soured an atmosphere of cooperation and squandered whatever goodwill the US had built up.

So no, the relationship between Russia and the US has not always been adversarial. Of course certain Westerners (not saying its you, necessarily) will always re-frame a "what could have been" scenario to one of "never has been" but that's more to deflect from the fact that a thoroughly unsophisticated American foreign policy that views everything with a childish storybook morality and lacks nuance screwed up a golden opportunity to really partner with Russia. All because the American hubris prevents it from treating other nations with an equal amount of respect.

China didn't have to do anything but pick up the scraps from the fallout. China treats Russia with more respect than does the US and acknowledges Russia's core interests as non-negotiable. And vice versa. And China reaps the rewards because for a moment, Russia was indeed America's to lose - and lose it America did. I'm sure China will take that over Vietnam any day.
 
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It is just a spin put up by the Japanese press to make the "concession" sound bigger than it really is, in order to bring China to the table, and eventually save abenomic.

In other news:
China protests at Japanese PM’s latest WW2 shrine tribute
Shinzo Abe sends ornaments to Yasukuni shrine, regarded by victims of wartime atrocities as symbol of militarism


Staff and agencies in Beijing
The Guardian, Friday 17 October 2014 09.25 BST

Yasukuni shrine in Japan Shinto priests and shrine maidens at the Yasukuni shrine, which honours war criminals among the millions of wartime victims. Photograph: Yuya Shino/Reuters

And,

Japan PM Sends Offerings to War Shrine
TOKYO — Oct 17, 2014, 3:32 PM ET
By MARI YAMAGUCHI Associated Press

The Associated Press
Associated Press

Japan's Prime Minister Shinzo Abe sent religious offerings Friday to a Tokyo shrine honoring the war dead including convicted wartime leaders, as dozens of lawmakers prayed at the site in a ceremony that drew a rebuke from China.

He ,and his minions, will never learn.
 
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Meeting of what?

An economy cooperation with China?


What a waste of time!

An hour after the meeting, Abe will fly to Japan, go and pray at YASUKUNI Shrine.

Then declare Japan is a peaceful nuclear power and will use it only to the EVIL country like CHINA and KOREA!


Btw, nice move ABE!

ALL Taiwanese love you!
 
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@TaiShang @Genesis @j20blackdragon @AgentOrange

It's hard for me to believe any of you are that naive. Please provide evidence, any evidence, that Russia was at any point objectively "pro-America," after the end of the Cold War. Seriously, any time from 1991 to the present. It can be anything from Russia voting with us on important issues in the UNSC (never happened), or burgeoning trade between our countries (never happened), or any other form of warming relations you choose. Good luck with that, I'll wait while you search.

I see a lot of harping about the reset, and how we lost Russia. OK. It should then be a simple matter to prove that between the reset and Crimea, Russia showed signs of pro-American behavior. Please supply evidence of this. Short of that, the idea that the US "lost Russia" is, for lack of a better term, delusional.

Is it really legitimate to compare Russia's grudging neutrality (the reality of the situation) with Vietnam's explicit pro-China stance before the oil rig?

Finally, I see a lot of talk about the US alienating Russia and then China picking up the scraps. Do you see the irony in this observation, or have you missed the point of this entire thread?
 
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Japan and China decide to tone down mutual tensions and third-party players are angry.

That says it all...

Succinctly put but very accurate. One detects similar sour grapes whenever there's a Western article about increasing Sino-Russian political, economic, and military cooperation.

Things like "oh but that gas deal wasn't at great prices for the Russians! China screwed up! The Russians won't be happy." You know what the Russians are even less happy about? Western sanctions against them.

@TaiShang @Genesis @j20blackdragon @AgentOrange

It's hard for me to believe any of you are that naive. Please provide evidence, any evidence, that Russia was at any point objectively "pro-America," after the end of the Cold War. Seriously, any time from 1991 to the present.

Seriously? I literally referenced a book because it details how Russia (after the USSR) essentially gave away the farm whilst negotiating over the division of Cold War "spoils" or resources, all in a bid to win American favor.
 
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Succinctly put but very accurate. One detects similar sour grapes whenever there's a Western article about increasing Sino-Russian political, economic, and military cooperation.

Things like "oh but that gas deal wasn't at great prices for the Russians! China screwed up! The Russians won't be happy." You know what the Russians are even less happy about? Western sanctions against them.

China, Japan and Russia are smart countries.

They won't let themselves be manipulated like many other countries, killing each other, while the rest of the world moves into the space age.
 
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Seriously? I literally referenced a book because it details how Russia (after the USSR) essentially gave away the farm whilst negotiating over the division of Cold War "spoils" or resources, all in a bid to win American favor.

I will get to the book, but I clearly cannot have bought it and read it in the past five minutes. Since you imply that you have, please supply the evidence presented in that book.
 
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@TaiShang @Genesis @j20blackdragon @AgentOrange

It's hard for me to believe any of you are that naive. Please provide evidence, any evidence, that Russia was at any point objectively "pro-America," after the end of the Cold War. Seriously, any time from 1991 to the present. It can be anything from Russia voting with us on important issues in the UNSC (never happened), or burgeoning trade between our countries (never happened), or any other form of warming relations you choose. Good luck with that, I'll wait while you search.

I see a lot of harping about the reset, and how we lost Russia. OK. It should then be a simple matter to prove that between the reset and Crimea, Russia showed signs of pro-American behavior. Please supply evidence of this. Short of that, the idea that the US "lost Russia" is, for lack of a better term, delusional.

Is it really legitimate to compare Russia's grudging neutrality (the reality of the situation) with Vietnam's explicit pro-China stance before the oil rig?

Finally, I see a lot of talk about the US alienating Russia and then China picking up the scraps. Do you see the irony in this observation, or have you missed the point of this entire thread?

I am not sure what is your idea of being "pro-America?" And who said Russia is "pro-China?"

That's your underlying intellectual fixture right there: The believe that for a country to be pro-US, it needs to be entirely subservient to its wishes regardless. So, there is the lack of understanding that a "partnership" can actually be "equal," based on mutual interest, non-intervention and non-alignment.

Yes, Russia was indeed very pro-US from the perspective of China's understanding of what a partnership means. For a general US audience, however, if there is no servitude, there is no partnership. Hence, the US partners with Japan, but in conflict with China. For China is a normal nation whereas Japan is just a distant informal colony.

China is obviously happy with its relations with Russia no matter how lame it may seem to the Western analysts. It is, as often said, a new form of great power relationship, after all. That the US audience is surprised at the level of partnership between China and Russia without any taint of servitude observed is understandable but not justifiable.

This is exactly what China wants in terms of its relations with Japan. Probably that's why Japan, despite all the hot rhetoric, is never explicitly hostile to China. The article above obviously misses the point and paint the new possibility of a rapprochement as a chance for the Chinese side to twist the knife. That's a signature trait of US diplomacy which can buy allies and sells them at the first sign of a greater benefit. US did that with Saddam. Have done that with Nusra/ISIS terrorists. China, on the other, offers a parallel order in terms of how inter-state relations must be structured.
 
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China has not fired, neither has Vietnam, no island has changed hands, the oil rig is in a OVERLAPPING EEZ, and NOT the exclusive economic zone, and this claim is due to Hainan and not a disputed island.

propaganda trick again:
According UNCLOS - HY-981 in our EEZ


eez3_full.jpg
 
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