J20 Shock to PLAAF

[Only a courier]

Drill 1:
Blue: J20 * 2, with lensen lens, only carries Mid-Range AAM
Red: Several 3.5x gen fighter + Several 3x gen fighter + KJ500 AWACs
Blue Target: Kill KJ500 AWACs

Process:
J20 entered by low altitude, kills 3x gen 1 by 1,
KJ500 turned to the opposite and ran, called 3.5x back
J20 tried to make sure of kill, was too close to KJ500, KJ500 downed but located J20 in radar, distributed to 3.5x via datalink,
J20 out of AAM and ran
3.5x AESA was able to see through the ECM from J20

Result:
Red: KJ500 AWACs killed. All 3x killed, lots of 3.5x killed.
Blue: 1 J20 killed.

Drill 2:
Multiple J20 and J16 played 3rd party other than Blue/Red (most likely simulates F22/F15)
Red: 3.5x, 3x, SAM, AWACs, Ground based Radar,...entire PLAAF set up before J20
Blue Target: kill key Red battle node (Blue most likely simulates TaiWan forces)

Process:
J20 as information node, J16 receives tactical information from J20 and shoots Long-Range AAM (PL21/PL15?), downed lots of Red planes (like F35, A shoot B guide)
Red tried to use SAM as bait, but backfired and lost SAM units.

Result:
Blue successfully killed key battle node (Airport? AWACs? Ground EW Radar? whatever...)
Only 1 J16 was down by Red

DRILLs proved many so-called PLAAF 'tactics' before J20 entering service, were just empty thinking.

Source: 席亚洲

 

[CrusherChamp]

Drill 1:
Blue: J20 * 2, with lensen lens, only carries Mid-Range AAM
Red: Several 3.5x gen fighter + Several 3x gen fighter + KJ500 AWACs
Blue Target: Kill KJ500 AWACs

Process:
J20 entered by low altitude, kills 3x gen 1 by 1,
KJ500 turned to the opposite and ran, called 3.5x back
J20 tried to make sure of kill, was too close to KJ500, KJ500 downed but located J20 in radar, distributed to 3.5x via datalink,
J20 out of AAM and ran
3.5x AESA was able to see through the ECM from J20

Result:
Red: KJ500 AWACs killed. All 3x killed, lots of 3.5x killed.
Blue: 1 J20 killed.

Drill 2:
Multiple J20 and J16 played 3rd party other than Blue/Red (most likely simulates F22/F15)
Red: 3.5x, 3x, SAM, AWACs, Ground based Radar,...entire PLAAF set up before J20
Blue Target: kill key Red battle node (Blue most likely simulates TaiWan forces)

Process:
J20 as information node, J16 receives tactical information from J20 and shoots Long-Range AAM (PL21/PL15?), downed lots of Red planes (like F35, A shoot B guide)
Red tried to use SAM as bait, but backfired and lost SAM units.

Result:
Blue successfully killed key battle node (Airport? AWACs? Ground EW Radar? whatever...)
Only 1 J16 was down by Red

DRILLs proved many so-called PLAAF 'tactics' before J20 entering service, were just empty thinking.

Source: 席亚洲

Its a very good news. What about againt 4 gen or 4++ gen.

 

[Brainsucker]

Its a very good news. What about againt 4 gen or 4++ gen.

Actually, J-20 is a 4 gen fighter for China standard. The so called 3rd Gen and 3,5 Gen are basically the 4 gen and 4.5 gen of Lockhead Martin standard of Fighter Generation.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Its a very good news. What about againt 4 gen or 4++ gen.

This is actually very bad news for China considering the fact that there are very few J-20s and the number will likely remain low in the next two to three years due to expense/WS-15 development.

In the first exercise, the pair of J-20s didn't carry WVR missiles, which led some observers to speculate that they intended to simulate F-35s in a similar mission. 4.5th and 4th generation escorts not only failed to protect the KJ-500 from such an attack but also suffered heavy loses.

This is a major wakeup call for PLAAF considering the fact that the U.S., South Korea, and Japan will deploy hundreds of F-35s/F-22s within the West Pacific theater.

 

[Brainsucker]

This is actually very bad news for China considering the fact that there are very few J-20s and the number will likely remain low in the next two to three years due to expense/WS-15 development.

In the first exercise, the pair of J-20s didn't carry WVR missiles, which led some observers to speculate that they intended to simulate F-35s in a similar mission. 4.5th and 4th generation escorts not only failed to protect the KJ-500 from such an attack but also suffered heavy loses.

This is a major wakeup call for PLAAF considering the fact that the U.S., South Korea, and Japan will deploy hundreds of F-35s/F-22s within the West Pacific theater.

But J-20 is different from F-22. F-22 is a short range air superiority, while J-20 is a long range Sniper that target AEWAC, Refuelers, etc. The first drill just show that J-20 work like what intended.

 

[Gufi]

In the first exercise, the pair of J-20s didn't carry WVR missiles, which led some observers to speculate that they intended to simulate F-35s in a similar mission. 4.5th and 4th generation escorts not only failed to protect the KJ-500 from such an attack but also suffered heavy loses.

Certain points that need to be considered here, which include the AESA detecting the planes, the AWAC also detecting the plane, and the lack of ground and naval assets which would also be synchronised to develop a more concrete picture of the battlefield. Exercises which do not include these can not predict the actual picture, and here I am not mentioning satellite imagery either.

Red: 3.5x, 3x, SAM, AWACs, Ground based Radar,...entire PLAAF set up before J20

here, I would like to see the actual assets used. What radars and SAM systems are used, and what were the mission perimeters.
But I do agree the future is in 5th Generation planes, but to think that the planes themselves, especially a plane with a limited radius like the F 35 should not make the PLAAF make radical changes without due consideration to economic effects.

 

[Beast]

This is actually very bad news for China considering the fact that there are very few J-20s and the number will likely remain low in the next two to three years due to expense/WS-15 development.

In the first exercise, the pair of J-20s didn't carry WVR missiles, which led some observers to speculate that they intended to simulate F-35s in a similar mission. 4.5th and 4th generation escorts not only failed to protect the KJ-500 from such an attack but also suffered heavy loses.

This is a major wakeup call for PLAAF considering the fact that the U.S., South Korea, and Japan will deploy hundreds of F-35s/F-22s within the West Pacific theater.

Low numbers? The pulse production line China created is supposed to chunk out J-20 like no tomorrow. J-20 enter full combat service in such short time from production more or less show how fast J-20 are chunk out.

 

[SQ8]

Essentially the J-20 just showed what a war with the USA would look like.. a slaughterhouse for PLAAF forces.

The best solution is to use similar integration techniques and bring up J-20 and the second jet Chengdu has in the works quickly.

 

[Brainsucker]

Essentially the J-20 just showed what a war with the USA would look like.. a slaughterhouse for PLAAF forces.

The best solution is to use similar integration techniques and bring up J-20 and the second jet Chengdu has in the works quickly.

No, they just need to make a better AEWAC that can detect Stealth Fighter better. Such AEWAC is still very rare today. If these J-20 can destroy Chinese AEWAC team, they can also destroy all AEWAC teams in this world, except that one anti Stealth AEWAC that the US possess today (which I doubt they will share it to anyone as it will render their stealth fighter useless).

To fight against a stealth fighter doesn't mean that you have to use another stealth fighter. What you need is a radar that can detect them. It just like submarine. You don't need another submarine to destroy the enemy submarine. You need to make a system that can detect them.

 

[Mugwop]

@Martian2

What do you think?

 

[siegecrossbow]

Low numbers? The pulse production line China created is supposed to chunk out J-20 like no tomorrow. J-20 enter full combat service in such short time from production more or less show how fast J-20 are chunk out.

That's why they are using the WS-10 as an interim. However, sharing an engine with the J-16 will put a cap on both the J-20 and J-16.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

With J-20, China can develop new combat tactic and data mined all relevant information from the interaction between 4 gen and 3 gen fighter and battle group, it's worthy to put J-20 into service earlier so we can acquire more valuable information to develop 4 gen fighter combat but also for 3 gen fighter on how to counter 4 gen fighter.

When western media mock that we rush to push J-20 into service without proper engine, they know that China is about to data mined the entire Stealth fighter process which is very bad new for US and for those who doesn't have Stealth fighters.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

This is actually very bad news for China considering the fact that there are very few J-20s and the number will likely remain low in the next two to three years due to expense/WS-15 development.

In the first exercise, the pair of J-20s didn't carry WVR missiles, which led some observers to speculate that they intended to simulate F-35s in a similar mission. 4.5th and 4th generation escorts not only failed to protect the KJ-500 from such an attack but also suffered heavy loses.

This is a major wakeup call for PLAAF considering the fact that the U.S., South Korea, and Japan will deploy hundreds of F-35s/F-22s within the West Pacific theater.

It's good news in the broader sense that the PLAAF will now be fully committed to fifth-gen fighters and may well ramp up J-20 production (even without WS-15's) since the gap in capability between 4th/5th is just too great to bridge. Also, there may be even greater impetus placed on development of the WS-15.

However, sharing an engine with the J-16 will put a cap on both the J-20 and J-16.

There's a very simple solution to this: the J-16 dies.

 

[Martian2]

@Martian2

What do you think?

I don't think these exercises are particularly important. They are very limited in scope.

In a real battle, China's Chengdu J-20 stealth fighter works within a system.
China has a wide range of ground-based anti-stealth radars (L-band, VHF, UHF, and passive detection of enemy electromagnetic emissions).
China has sea-based anti-stealth radars. VHF on Type 052C and later generation destroyers.
China has air-based anti-stealth radars. AWACs (L-band) and drones (VHF and UHF).
China has infrared satellites to look for enemy aircraft exhaust plumes.

The anti-stealth radar coverage around China's borders is very extensive.

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The Chengdu J-20 probably will never face the F-22, due to the F-22's short combat radius.

Missiles can destroy the runways that the F-22 needs. With limited airbases in Asia, the US is at a huge disadvantage.
Missiles can easily destroy the fuel depots for the F-22. Without fuel, the F-22 cannot fly.
Missiles can also easily destroy the air refueling tankers meant to extend the combat radius of the F-22.
If the F-22 tries to carry external fuel tanks, it compromises its stealth and maneuverability. This makes the F-22 a much easier target to shoot down.
The F-22's fragile stealth coating means it needs temperature and humidity controlled hangars to reapply its stealth coatings. Chinese missiles can target the F-22 special hangars. If the special hangars are destroyed, there is no way to reapply the F-22 stealth coatings.
----------

In a real battle, China should have the advantages.

The ground-based, sea-based, air-based, and probably satellite-based anti-stealth radar systems allow China to clearly see American stealth fighters.

The J-20 has a combat radius of 1,200 miles. This means the J-20 can freely roam the battlespace to attack enemy AWACs and refueling tankers.

In contrast, the F-22 is always in danger of running out of fuel.

In Asia, China has countless airbases. Against US fighters based in South Korea or Japan, China can fire "endless" missiles with multiple warheads until those US bases in South Korea and Japan are destroyed. Without major air bases, the US cannot mount large air operations in Asia.

The US cannot rely on its aircraft carriers. Those carriers are vulnerable to Chinese anti-ship ballistic missiles (ASBMs), anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCMs), and torpedoes.

The US faces the same problem with its carriers that it faces with its land bases in Asia. China can fire "endless" missiles at US carriers. US carriers have a limited supply of weaponry (including those on supply ships). Once the last defensive missile has been fired, there is nothing to stop incoming Chinese missiles.

Also, the US needs a 100% success rate against incoming missiles. Of course, this is impossible. This means US carriers and destroyers can probably be sunk pretty quickly.
----------

So...do we really care about these very artificial and contrived scenarios for the Chengdu J-20? Not really.

In a real war, we already know how it should play out. It won't be a few J-20s against an incoming force.

It will be the entire Chinese defense system against the US expeditionary force. As I have explained above, I don't see how China can lose a war in Asia. China has all of the advantages, such as "endless" missiles because it can keep manufacturing more every day.

 

[siegecrossbow]

It's good news in the broader sense that the PLAAF will now be fully committed to fifth-gen fighters and may well ramp up J-20 production (even without WS-15's) since the gap in capability between 4th/5th is just too great to bridge. Also, there may be even greater impetus placed on development of the WS-15.

There's a very simple solution to this: the J-16 dies.

So far, the J-16 is the only aircraft integrated with the long-range air-to-air missile and has a much higher weapons load than the J-20. It is less expensive, easier to maintain, and better suited to multi-role operations. I don't think it is feasible to kill the J-16s.