J-31 possibly being tested & evaluated in Pakistan

[Armchair]

Chinese have always given Pakistan access to their best provided their own procurement requirements have been met. They have tried hard to sell there latest SAMs, Ships, WZ-10s, VT4s and etc all of their top of the line products. Pakistan has not always been receptive because it doesnt want to be too reliant or it feels they need to mature more. J-20 is design is built for long endurance ranges at expense of less maneuverability, those canards are there for added lift. PAF requirements are multirole, highly maneuverable, something more cost effective to field, lower maintenance and high availability.

There has not been a single item to date where Pakistan has requested but it was not provided by China. So your argument has no base as there is no precedent.

Now for aircraft program. The idea behind a aircraft is not make your own stuff, its to acquire a capability for your AF. If reliable supplier for components not available or the technology level is not available only then you make it yourself or if you really want to make everything yourself you have to spend extra , increase risk and expand the timeline. Japanese F2 and Indian LCA are examples, both ran into over runs and delays because of emphasis on local development. In case of LCA even the local radar and engine were failures so had to outsource them in the end which was an unnecessary waste of resources and time, they should have opted for available options from the start.

With Azm PAF wants a customized 5th gen aircraft tailored to its needs. PAF does not have the extra time to develop everything itself or can it afford the risk of failure. It can follow how Israel developed its industry their systems all started as local productions of US and French sub systems and then they started gradually improving them into new variants. It has a tested and successful development example of the JF-17 program which it can repeat but with greater control on integration. Just as Israel started with it´s aviation industry PAF now manufactures radars and avionics for the JF-17 locally and suppliers are keen to share their technologies because of competition and future collaboration prospects. This is why I think Azm will follow suite and be heavily based on the J-31. And I would like to add J-31 in it´s current form is not ready there are alot of expected changes to improve it. Super cruise is one of the features to be added once new powerplant available next year.

And for procurement. Please check your media and analysts reactions whenever we buy something followed by campaigns to boost fundings and speed up procurements.



I´ve been reading your posts and realize you have made up your mind about the ideal AA platform, a delta wing design with no canards or a YF-23 type design. It sounds pretty good but what you are often referring to is more similar to FB-22 which is a bomber. What PAF would want to have is a design which is more multirole.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_FB-22

With Azm the goal will likely be a jet which is both stealth (confirmed) and sensor fused/EW optimized. Sensor fused for AA and stealth for when in a strike role. The new design you are proposing can be done but it will make the project more expensive and will take several more years unrealistic for the timeline given by PAF. There are pros and cons for both the new design and the J-31 approach. Lets just agree to disagree and let it be. Will find out in few years whose approach is similar to whats taken.
And in no way Azm will be PAFs final jet there could be Azm 2 or a AA UCAV after this so lets just meet current needs right now.

As for twin J-10C/D, Im waiting to see how it turns out, if threat is too much for PAF to handle and it needs quick inductions it could be a reality.

Hi

1. The argument isn't China will not provide that FC-31 that was never an argument I made. See bold and underlined from your post.

2. I've not made up my mind about anything. There are three thoughts in my head (my speculation, just like yours above). Viz: 1) A stealthy, enlarged JF-17 ala Hornet / Super Hornet. 2) A tailless delta similar to the French / German project 3) A pocket F-22 with either a small weapons bay or semi-recessed weapons. Now, I hope I can be the author of my own opinions rather than being told what my opinion is!

3. I respect your right to believe Azm is an J-31 customized for PAF. For all we know, you could be right. I just simply disagree with that opinion.

4. That's interesting, yes a twin engined J-10 would be intriguing. But if PAF goes with the J-31 as you're stating, it would make no sense.

To support my assertions, I'd say that that trophy handed over, it looks like the German-French design. What a strange thing - there must have been a reason that image was used. If our claimant on this thread to insider information is right (we don't really know), and if you read between the lines of what he is saying, it also hints at the same.

 

[randomradio]

Chinese have always given Pakistan access to their best provided their own procurement requirements have been met. They have tried hard to sell there latest SAMs, Ships, WZ-10s, VT4s and etc all of their top of the line products. Pakistan has not always been receptive because it doesnt want to be too reliant or it feels they need to mature more. J-20 is design is built for long endurance ranges at expense of less maneuverability, those canards are there for added lift. PAF requirements are multirole, highly maneuverable, something more cost effective to field, lower maintenance and high availability.

There has not been a single item to date where Pakistan has requested but it was not provided by China. So your argument has no base as there is no precedent.

You didn't get my point. If you want the J-31, they will sell it to you, but if you want the J-31's radar for Project Azm, then you're gonna have to buy the J-31 first.

 

[Armchair]

Quantitative disadvantage can be addressed by SAM's, where as qualitative edge will be almost equal in a netcentric theater something PAF has been working on.

This is exactly what I was thinking and I've expressed this thought as well. That could be a really credible capability increase that asymmetrically "counters" IAF strength. Even a local LRSAM, even with a pK of 0.1, would be hugely effective.

Take something like a Nasr sized AAM, with a range of 100-200 km, and any intruding aircraft coming at anything other than nap of the earth, gets targeted. They are forced to engage in evasive maneuvers and to drop their war-loads. This evens the playing field for JF-17s no matter what India throws at it. A Rafale or a MKI doing evasive maneuver has surrendered its kinetic advantage.

The ridge going through the middle of Pakistan, going North to South, is ideal for the placement of SAM batteries / radars. On the one side are the planes of Sindh, on the other the highlands of Balochistan. A near perfect place for LRSAMs to infest themselves in.

If you wanted to be even more innovative, you could go for a two-stage LRSAM - a Nasr-like launcher, carrying a payload of 4-6x PL-12s. Its like AHEAD ammunition, in gargantuan scale.

Then you could add mobile lasers that China already has. These would not destroy enemy aircraft but dazzle their sensors and could even blind the pilot. Remember, enemy airborne radars / IRST are temperature sensitive, point a laser and it will degrade their operational efficience, as well as that of the MAWS, optics, EW, IFF, etc. (I know hard kill lasers aren't operational at long range, I'm talking about long-range electronic warfare, of a new variety - laser based).

There are so many things one could do - beyond buying 5th gen aircraft. Just takes a vivid imagination

PAF would most likely build an airframe and then decide which engine suites it the most i.e modular design that can incorporate not just Russian and Chinese engines but also Ukrainian, Turkish and British engines.

British - politics is a problem. Turkish - long way to maturity. Ukraine in theory had an option, but then they didn't invest in it. They still have a solid design house that could be "imported" and a local expertise developed. @messiach would know a lot more about how to go about developing a local industry.

Option seems to be RD-93 MA (or something better?) or WS-13 or WS-19. An educated guess is WS-19 will have the best efficiency of them all but will take a long time to develop and mature. Problem with the RD-93 / WS-13 series is that military power is a lot lower and afterburner seems quite useless. Its a simple and sturdy design. With technological maturity, and new tech out there (crystal blades), one needs a brand new drawing board design. Probably with one or two more fan stages and a smaller afterburner unit to compensate.

What if PAF does procure limited numbers of J-20 and look towards 6th gen aircraft.

I think even a handful of J-20s would be a game changer, particularly in its naval role. It would drastically increase the need for India to spend money on defending its South Indian air bases, in putting out radar networks all along its Western coast. And put a big bulls eye on their naval assets including turn their aircraft carrier into a gigantic target.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,
You are asking those reasons that you already know. Please read your own countries news papers and you would find the answers.

1) USA will never allow Pakistan to have top end fighter aircraft even if we pay 1000 times over the price it is being offered at.

2) UN is a victors club of WW2 hence they can not go against them. Impose sanctions on any sale of this technology by third parties i.e EU, UK, Canada, South Korea, Turkey, Russia and China. Unless one of these countries Russia, UK, France or China uses its vote against. Most likely China is the only country that would use this right but limitations would remain as not all the relevant technology is available.

3) Some how Pakistan is able to acquire these aircraft from other countries then any modifications, enhancements, upgrades etc. will still require permissions and hefty payments.

4) The most important is younger generation that will get to experience in this field will be leaving the country. In the near future Muslim engineers, doctors etc will become targets of hostilities as it has already started. Any crime that takes place is first looked upon with religion or ethnicity.

5) The design of J-31 prototype 001 is not up to the standard. Working on that would not attain much because most of its improvements have already been looked upon by and adopted in the new prototype.


Yes.... She has learnt.
Do not procure what is not going to be produced and inducted in numbers otherwise the costs would remain very high.

This is a harsh reality.

Hi,

The harsh reality is that the PAF officers are CON ARTISTS and have made you believe in their CON---.

 

[Armchair]

Lets see but may be the Russians can offer the PAK-FA as India has refused to procure those in favour of AMCA. In reality the F-35 is going to be preferred by India as Israel is going to lobby for them, may be with Israeli systems.

I believe there is a good possibility India will get both PAKFA and F-35 in small numbers (36?). This can be a very serious threat for PAF as these two aircraft perfectly complement each other. If they get an F-16 production line as well (which is the worst case scenario), that would be an unassailable situation for PAF. One must always plan for the worst case scenario.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

British - politics is a problem

This will be possible because once UK is out of EU it faces many hurdles. If you have been following the newspapers you would know that Scotland want a wall built as a border which UK would have to pay for. EU has said road tax would me imposed on traffic coming and going to UK. This does not include the other import duties and toll. Moreover Scotland wants all the bases be removed specially those containing the nuclear arsenal.

So it is highly possible UK would be looking in for other partners and the long awaited commonwealth dream looks not that distant.

Turkish - long way to maturity. Ukraine in theory had an option, but then they didn't invest in it. They still have a solid design house that could be "imported" and a local expertise developed. @messiach would know a lot more about how to go about developing a local industry.

Turkey was interested in the Ukrainian engine and if my memory serves me correctly there was some kind of agreement on co production after the Eurojet deal did not materialize.

I think even a handful of J-20s would be a game changer, particularly in its naval role. It would drastically increase the need for India to spend money on defending its South Indian air bases, in putting out radar networks all along its Western coast. And put a big bulls eye on their naval assets including turn their aircraft carrier into a gigantic target.

It is a possibility that PAF procures J- 20 because it is a front line fighter and would be produced in numbers cutting its price.

I believe there is a good possibility India will get both PAKFA and F-35 in small numbers (36?). This can be a very serious threat for PAF as these two aircraft perfectly complement each other. If they get an F-16 production line as well (which is the worst case scenario), that would be an unassailable situation for PAF. One must always plan for the worst case scenario.

India would not procure PAK-FA. Most likely China has offered some improvements and USA refusing Turkey F-35 would practically kill Indian interest.

 

[Armchair]

Please look at the single engine TFX design. That might be the one PAF considers.

Which one? there are two single engined designs proposed for the TFX - one a delta canard the other conventional. Both look good a project that is high risk and likely to fail because they chose the wrong partners - Europeans are not going to build a 5th gen for Turkey - they hate Islam and Muslims. And "Turk" and "Muslim" were historically synonyms for them. Its going to be one colossal drama and then a cop out like their MBT program.

Turkey was interested in the Ukrainian engine and if my memory serves me correctly there was some kind of agreement on co production after the Eurojet deal did not materialize.

Thanks for the info, I was unaware. I'll try to read up on this.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

The question should have been---why is it an indigenous design---why---what is the reason behind it---what is the engineering base behind it to have own design rather than the already existing J31---.

How is it that Pakistan can afford to experiment when the enemy is inducting aircraft after an aircraft---?

This tantamounts to treason against the state---.

Hasn't the Paf learnt from JF17 that such projects run 10-15 years behind with just one hiccup---.

It looks like the Paf has bigger egos than their brains---.

It is more like a di-ck measuring contest---.

Answers to your questions, dear Mastan Khan Sahib

Qtn: why is it an indigenous design---why---what is the reason behind it---what is the engineering base behind it to have own design rather than the already existing J31---.

Answer: J-31 is a poorly designed plane, made from drawings hacked from the country you belong to. They are severely underpowered, with only an outside chance, based on the WS-19 to be successful. Depending on how successful that project can or cannot be. Going by past record, China will stumble and fall or take an inordinately long time.

Qtn: How is it that Pakistan can afford to experiment when the enemy is inducting aircraft after an aircraft---?
Answer: Tejas isn't an aircraft, its a unicorn. 36 Rafale. And giant numbers of aircraft going out of service. Isn't it you who taught us how without R&D no nation can succeed? That the great trial and error method of the US was what made it great? By the same token the JF-17 shouldn't have been developed and was "treason" too? But you keep writing good stuff about the JFT, so I'm confused.

Why can't PAF take a low-cost, low risk approach to building a next generation aircraft? Or be called traitors?

Qtn: Hasn't the Paf learnt from JF17 that such projects run 10-15 years behind with just one hiccup---
Answer: Did they have to learn from the JF-17 that, or could they just have learned that from reading about past combat aircraft development projects?
Was the JFT a success? Yes
Why can't it replicate and improve upon that success? Why Mastan Khan WHY?

Qtn: It looks like the Paf has bigger egos than their brains---
Answer: It takes brains and guts to build a fighter. Which PAF successfully has. I'm sure fighter pilots have big egos. At least its not suicidal like in the case of India, or treasonous as is the case of the USAF.

Qtn: It is more like a di-ck measuring contest---
Answer: Against whom? IAF di-cks are legendarily small - the size of their LCA. IAF simply is unlikely to field its own 5th gen indigenous fighter, specially with the unceremonious death of the FGFA. Who is PAF comparing its di-ck with? China? Russia? Turkey? Europe?
Do you really believe PAF would ever have built the JFT let alone Azm, if USA gave them F-16s?
PAF would have been riding F-16s till kingdom come if they had the option.
PAF is in a corner with only Chinese planes available to it. J-10s for $65 million a piece. With engines prone to flameout and long spoolup times.
What magical di-ck options does PAF have?

j-31 depends on a massive leap in engine technology - from RD-93 copy to F-414 class. This is the risky option. Its airframe will generate massive drag. Its a flying brick. Read what GLAAAR has to say about the aerodynamics of the F-35. Then compare the engine thrusts on the Chinese knockoff, which has even more drag and possibly weight.

The low risk option is to develop a low-risk airframe with the help of Chengdu. SAC does not have experience designing contemporary airframes. Go to a company that does. Even if MK calls you a traitor for it.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Which one? there are two single engined designs proposed for the TFX - one a delta canard the other conventional. Both look good a project that is high risk and likely to fail because they chose the wrong partners - Europeans are not going to build a 5th gen for Turkey - they hate Islam and Muslims. And "Turk" and "Muslim" were historically synonyms for them. Its going to be one colossal drama and then a cop out like their MBT program.

This is what the Turks chose
http://www.janes.com/article/76445/tai-releases-technical-specifications-for-tf-x

This design was also based on a single engine. If PAF makes the single engine one and Turkey the Twin engine one it would be similar to F-15 and F-16 on the 80's. Twin engine for superiority and and single for multi role.

 

[Imran Khan]

any image or clip that j-31 every was in Pakistan ?

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/19...Produce_TF_X_Fighter_Jet_Engines#.Wze1k9Uza1s

@Armchair

any image or clip that j-31 every was in Pakistan ?

nothing available for the time being

 

[Armchair]

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/19...Produce_TF_X_Fighter_Jet_Engines#.Wze1k9Uza1s

@Armchair



nothing available for the time being

The first article from Janes only has a picture of a twin engine, at least the free part (I'm not a subscriber).
The second article only talks about RR and Kale, nothing about Ukraine? I believe the UK will not give Turkey a contemporary engine, but that's just my opinion nothing more. And will take a long time to develop this, if it gets developed at all.
Its remarkably naive on the part of Turkey to still be buying F-35s and trying to develop tanks using Germany / Austria (a big flat slap they got on their face, after years wasted and $$$). Still not learning, they have now ventured into spending billions on RR and BAe.
Reminds me of the adage - a fool and his money are soon parted.
PAF cannot hope anything out of this except sub-systems perhaps.

 

[BRAVO_]

any image or clip that j-31 every was in Pakistan ?

sir,
this entire thread is based upon assumptions, myths and fantasies ... lets wait till some credible source

 

[MastanKhan]

Chinese have always given Pakistan access to their best provided their own procurement requirements have been met. They have tried hard to sell there latest SAMs, Ships, WZ-10s, VT4s and etc all of their top of the line products. Pakistan has not always been receptive because it doesnt want to be too reliant or it feels they need to mature more. J-20 is design is built for long endurance ranges at expense of less maneuverability, those canards are there for added lift. PAF requirements are multirole, highly maneuverable, something more cost effective to field, lower maintenance and high availability.

There has not been a single item to date where Pakistan has requested but it was not provided by China. So your argument has no base as there is no precedent.

Hi,

Thank you very much for this post---. I myself have stated that many a times that whatever Pal military has asked from the chinese---they have received it---.

People don't understand is that Pak militaries requirements are not that of outrageous equipment---or highly advanced equipment that they may have a hard time absorbing it into the system.

Pak military's requirments have always been utilitarian---.

Maybe I should invite @Deino to read your post---.

Thank you.

 

[messiach]

If you are looking for a slim,curvy fighter you shall be extremely disappointed.

British - politics is a problem. Turkish - long way to maturity. Ukraine in theory had an option, but then they didn't invest in it. They still have a solid design house that could be "imported" and a local expertise developed. @messiach would know a lot more about how to go about developing a local industry.

Neither of these.

Option seems to be RD-93 MA (or something better?) or WS-13 or WS-19. An educated guess is WS-19 will have the best efficiency of them all but will take a long time to develop and mature.