J-20 vs F-22

[gambit]

Was there other fighters beating F-22 in dog fights?

That particular exercise did have some details, including the photo of the F-22 in the crosshair, taken by the F/A-18. I also read the detailed story by the pilot. Sorry, I don't ever save the link to those stories.

By the way, during NATO exercises, Rafale was able to get some ties against F-22. That was discussed a lot in some Typhoon vs Rafael threads.

The F-22 has been known to fly with enhancers to provide opponents experience on seeing the differences between a 'normal' F-22 versus 'enhanced'.

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/news/2010_10_04_News_F22_Loadeo_1269967624_8549.jpg

In the above photo, the 'enhancer' is on the right side, that little pod hanging on the underside. Out here in Nellis, just about every F-22 on the flightline I see has this 'dingleberry' attached.

 

[gubbi]

I bet it is top secret, as not to expose the Raptor's weakness... if there is one, surely the J-20 of all planes have the best chances of dectecting it aswell...

How?

1234567890

 

[gambit]

In such exercises, doesnt the F-22 fly with most of its abilities 'shutdown'?

According to my sources...No.

 

[localoca]

In such exercises, doesnt the F-22 fly with most of its abilities 'shutdown'?

Troll.... don't disgrace yourselfe anymore by disrespecting the pilots of the Growler...

 

[johnqh]

I know that story. I have no problems acknowledging the EF-18 crew's testimony as honest, but like I said, the details do not exist for us to know any better. The issue and question here is that if there is such a weakness, it would have been consistently exposed a long time ago. I see this as no different than how the Serbs got lucky but that story got blown out of proportions.

OK, I went to dig out the detail of the photo.
The Super Hornet guns down the F-22 Raptor, page 1

According to the discussion on that page, the F-18 bled speed to 180 knots to get the shot. This is consistent with the tactic I paraphrased above on F-18 vs F-16. If the F-18 missed the shot, it is dead meat because it has no energy.

 

[gubbi]

According to my sources...No.

Ok. I was of the opinion that such an advanced aircraft would fly with a little disadvantage, just like USAF fighters did in Cope India or even in the Red Flag exercises. IAF Su30MKi had some of their radars' abilities shutoff while in Cope India IAF pitted 3 MiG21s against 1 F-15, IIRC.

So does the F-22 fly against numerically superior 'red' forces?

 

[gubbi]

Troll.... don't disgrace yourselfe anymore by disrespecting the pilots of the Growler...

Dude! You need to read a lot before you can post your opinions, lest you disgrace yourself further!

You havent answered any of the questions I put. What does THAT say about you?

 

[gambit]

OK, I went to dig out the detail of the photo.
The Super Hornet guns down the F-22 Raptor, page 1

According to the discussion on that page, the F-18 bled speed to 180 knots to get the shot. This is consistent with the tactic I paraphrased above on F-18 vs F-16. If the F-18 missed the shot, it is dead meat because it has no energy.

Look closely at the HUD capture image. Notice how close the two aircrafts are in this engagement. The US never claimed the F-22 to be 'invisible' to radar, just extremely difficult to acquire a consistent lock. At this close of an engagement, even the F-22 can be acquired and locked by any standard fighter-class radar. But like I said, the details on how the fight was led up to this point do not give us anything more than speculations, usually biased against the F-22, to go by.

 

[SQ8]

I know that story. I have no problems acknowledging the EF-18 crew's testimony as honest, but like I said, the details do not exist for us to know any better. The issue and question here is that if there is such a weakness, it would have been consistently exposed a long time ago. I see this as no different than how the Serbs got lucky but that story got blown out of proportions.

Apparently they do..thought you might have heard of it
the Growler broke the rules.. went beyond safety regs.. putting himself and the F-22 pilot(who was staying within those restrictions) at grave risk. That shot may be famous.. but it was hedged.
A F-16 also has a kill on a raptor.. but it had to get itself killed as well.. when it fired its Aim-9x at the F-22.. there was an Aim-9M fired by the raptor well on its way to kill it.

without those enhancers.. whatchamacallit..something lens..
Nobody at the ATLC in the UAE were close enough to seeing the raptor on radar.
You cant kill what you cant see.. and legacy jets.. including the super flankers and the eurocanards.. dont have a shot at getting the raptor. No official results..by the ATLC staff were published.. till then.. the french claim of kills.. remains a marketing ploy.
in the words of Colonel Terrence Fornof .. the raptor is way out of their league..
and to back that up.. in the words of a PAF Acdre.. the raptor is a 100 years ahead of the competition.
Too bad its been capped at 187..

 

[xMustiiej70]

I love the F16.. i have actually seen one up close and touched it.. i've even sat in it ... and i have flown in an M2000..

have you ?

yup.. but not flown in it.
and hmm.. you survived in that airplane with the pilot flying?
wow good achievement.. you havent crashed into one of m the turkish birds

 

[gambit]

Ok. I was of the opinion that such an advanced aircraft would fly with a little disadvantage, just like USAF fighters did in Cope India or even in the Red Flag exercises. IAF Su30MKi had some of their radars' abilities shutoff while in Cope India IAF pitted 3 MiG21s against 1 F-15, IIRC.

So does the F-22 fly against numerically superior 'red' forces?

Sure...

Raptor debuts at Red Flag, dominates skies

An official from the 65th Aggressor Squadron said the F-22s demonstrated an extremely lopsided advantage in their favor.

Pilots from the 65th and 64th AS, including exchange pilots from the Royal Australian Air Force and Royal Air Force, of Australia and England respectfully, expressed their frustration related to flying against the stealthy F-22.

"The thing denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, F-15 exchange pilot in the 65th AS. "It's the most frustrated I've ever been."

According to Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, aggressor pilots turned up the heat on the F-22 using tactics they believe to be modern threats. For security purposes these tactics weren't released; nonetheless, they said their efforts against the Raptors were fruitless.

"We [even] tried to overload them with numbers and failed," said Colonel Bruce. "It's humbling to fly against the F-22." This is a remarkable testimony because the Red Flag aggressor pilots are renowned for their skill and experience. Lt. Col. Dirk Smith, 94th Fighter Squadron commander, said the aggressor forces represent the most lethal threat friendly forces would ever face.

When airborne, your visual range does not have to be close where you can see the rivets and panels of an aircraft. It can be far enough where you can make out the basic outline of your opponent. So for an aircraft to be within visual range yet unable to acquire radar lock on the F-22 says something about its low radar observability.

 

[gambit]

Apparently they do..thought you might have heard of it
the Growler broke the rules.. went beyond safety regs.. putting himself and the F-22 pilot(who was staying within those restrictions) at grave risk. That shot may be famous.. but it was hedged.
A F-16 also has a kill on a raptor.. but it had to get itself killed as well.. when it fired its Aim-9x at the F-22.. there was an Aim-9M fired by the raptor well on its way to kill it.

without those enhancers.. whatchamacallit..something lens..
Nobody at the ATLC in the UAE were close enough to seeing the raptor on radar.
You cant kill what you cant see.. and legacy jets.. including the super flankers and the eurocanards.. dont have a shot at getting the raptor. No official results..by the ATLC staff were published.. till then.. the french claim of kills.. remains a marketing ploy.
in the words of Colonel Terrence Fornof .. the raptor is way out of their league..
and to back that up.. in the words of a PAF Acdre.. the raptor is a 100 years ahead of the competition.
Too bad its been capped at 187..

Luneberg (luneburg) lens => Passive radar reflector - trihedral corner reflector - antenna -Luneburg radar

 

[johnqh]

Look closely at the HUD capture image. Notice how close the two aircrafts are in this engagement. The US never claimed the F-22 to be 'invisible' to radar, just extremely difficult to acquire a consistent lock. At this close of an engagement, even the F-22 can be acquired and locked by any standard fighter-class radar. But like I said, the details on how the fight was led up to this point do not give us anything more than speculations, usually biased against the F-22, to go by.

At this distance, I don't think the stealth matters.

Nobody is biased against F-22. F-22 hardly ever loses during those exercises. I was just pointing out different tactics in dog fight. There are always sacrifices in design. F-18 and delta wing fighters go for the instant turn rate at the expense of speed, but in a prolonged dog fight, speed is important. I said myself that F-18 would be a sitting duck if he missed the shot.

This tactic could have been used dozens of times and this was the only time F-18 was able to succeed.

That doesn't prevent us from speculating the potential encounter and tactics if J-20 and F-22 meets. That's the whole point of the thread.

I would even give T-50 credit. Note its optical/IR sensors. F-22 won't be stealthy within 20 miles of T-50. So it could be an even fight (even over sustained turn rate) between T-50 and F-22.

 

[amalakas]

I wouldn't think less of the F22 because the F18 got a shot. If nothing else, the first thing we need to do is praise the ability of the F18 pilot.
second we would (if in position to know) see how the engagement played out.. F15s are supposed to have tried to take shots on F22s in particular circumstances..
On simulations allegedly a standard Su27 is able to get a shot in a very particular scenario against F22s (i think) ...
that doesn't mean anything really though ..you cant win a war hoping every day is Sunday ..

 

[gambit]

At this distance, I don't think the stealth matters.

Nobody is biased against F-22. F-22 hardly ever loses during those exercises. I was just pointing out different tactics in dog fight. There are always sacrifices in design. F-18 and delta wing fighters go for the instant turn rate at the expense of speed, but in a prolonged dog fight, speed is important. I said myself that F-18 would be a sitting duck if he missed the shot.

This tactic could have been used dozens of times and this was the only time F-18 was able to succeed.

That doesn't prevent us from speculating the potential encounter and tactics if J-20 and F-22 meets. That's the whole point of the thread.

I would even give T-50 credit. Note its optical/IR sensors. F-22 won't be stealthy within 20 miles of T-50. So it could be an even fight (even over sustained turn rate) between T-50 and F-22.

Exactly...Then the point is not to get into any situation where one's advantages do 'not matter'. In a fight, the goal is make your opponent fight under your rules, not you under his, and cheating is allowed.