J-10C for PAF - Hypothetical Scenario

[Windjammer]

Just to give a clearer picture (literally) of what @Windjammer is pointing out.

View attachment 594729

I mentioned F/A-18....not the Super Hornet.
Standard F/A-18 is only about Two Feet Longer than the J-10.

Specifications (F/A-18C/D)

• Crew: 1 (C)/2 (D - pilot and weapon systems officer)
• Length: 56 ft 1 in (17.1 m)

 

[Trailer23]

I mentioned F/A-18....not the Super Hornet.
Standard F/A-18 is only about Two Feet Longer than the J-10.

Well, hopefully the guys will figure that one out (on their own) no need for further illustration.

 

[araz]

We often hear about PAF’s inability to procure advanced jets and the J-10 generally comes up for discussion in this context. Members have argued that the J-10 isn’t drastically different from the JF-17 and that it wouldn’t offer any major improvements over the JF-17.

The J-10C is now cleared for export. In this context, if PAF was able to mate the Turkish F-16 upgrade Özgür program into the J-10C along with upcoming Turkish BVR/WVR SOM cruise missiles and South African missiles, will this not offer significant advantages over the JF-17 and become credible replacement for the mirages and F-7 since the JF-17 can’t replace them all. With J-10, JF-17, F-16 and AZM project, PAF would still only operate 4 unique fighter planes which is well within the current trends.

arguments and counterargument welcome

Why would AF want to replace a Chinese AESA with a Turkish one? Almost everything in Turkish inventory is present in Chinese or Pak inventory. There will be no permission given to PAF to do so. Neither does there appear to be a need.
So please elaborate why you want to do so.
A

 

[StormBreaker]

From reading @messiach comments on JF-17 thread I got the feeling that PAF might be interested in J35 but that jet is FAR AWAY from becoming a real consideration even it's engine WS19 is suppose to complete development in 2025 and these projects rarely meet deadlines. But a year or so back there was a Washington Post(I think) article which claimed that Pak & China are working on a new SEZ where next gen aircraft will be built now that could be pure gibberish or there might be some truth in that as PAF chief said that they also intend to make engines for NGF which realistically is Chinese OEM setting up production facility in Pakistan, it is unlikely that Pakistan will get another Russian engine Su57 will most likely go to India which means Pakistan will not have access to that engine, Mikoyan is developing a medium weight 5th gen fighter with UAE which will directly compete with NGF on paper, Turks are just starting out that to with RR so there might be restriction on that as well, so that leaves Chinese option only.

As much as I like J10 I don't see what it will bring in addition to JF17 other than range and additional payload but our enemy is right next door, 10 to 15 min flight from forward base and you will cross IB what we need is a longer legged SOW such as Raptor 3 or RAAD "lite". This money could be used to deck out or increase production on blk3.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD

China has an urgency to deploy 5th Gen Aircrafts, they have commissioned the newest carrier 2 days ago, 3rd one under construction will be commissioned by 2021 while 4th and 5th are rumoured to have a timeline of 2023 and 2025. I have a strong feeling that China will push J-35 project to LRIP by 2022-2023 at most. J-35 is not a project from scratch or drawing board as per rumours, rather a redesigned and improvised J-31 adding elements of v1 and v2. 4th carrier might directly comprise of J-35 along with J-15B/D.

As for PAF, I strongly believe that IF AZM is a 2 engine project, it will be way above medium weight category, the operational and maintenance costs would be heavy as well. We might go for similar numbers to 120 F-22 with USA.

BUT

To replace its real backbone which is the gigantic fleet of F-16, they will use F-35.

We are long from replacing our F-16 and Thunders are just new birds with at least 25 years of service for them overall.

However, the requirement of a 5th gen LOW RCS craft is highest than ever thanks to S-400 and Rafale.

We must take Thunder project to tables, with China, produce a Jointly developed 5th Gen Thunder by 2026 and induct them. India is not getting 5th gen anytime sooner. Even if somehow they get F-35, that also won’t be before 2024-25.

Just to give a clearer picture (literally) of what @Windjammer is pointing out.

View attachment 594729

F-16 is also 52 feet and yet single engine @Windjammer

 

[Philip the Arab]

You can't just compare fighters to each other in a fair way, combat is not fair. There will be assets supporting both air forces, and key way to beat Indian air force is to destroy AWACS aircraft. Without AWACS, IAF would be like a man armed with a gun, but only has a flashlight at night while PAF would be able to operate with night vision goggles. J-10C is not the key here, it can't perform the role needed to destroy AWACS at far range.

Key for PAF is buying an aircraft like Mig-31BM armed with very long range BVRAAMs that allow engagement of AWACS at far ranges, and yet can safely maneuver out of the situation. Even buying a squadron of these aircraft would allow PAF to take out strategic assets of IAF.

 

[Ultima Thule]

F-16 is also 52 feet and yet single engine @Windjammer

No, almost 50 feet
Length: 49 ft 5 in (15.06 m)

 

[StormBreaker]

No, almost 50 feet
Length: 49 ft 5 in (15.06 m)

Convert 16m to feet

 

[Ultima Thule]

You can't just compare fighters to each other in a fair way, combat is not fair. There will be assets supporting both air forces, and key way to beat Indian air force is to destroy AWACS aircraft. Without AWACS, IAF would be like a man armed with a gun, but only has a flashlight at night while PAF would be able to operate with night vision goggles. J-10C is not the key here, it can't perform the role needed to destroy AWACS at far range.

Key for PAF is buying an aircraft like Mig-31BM armed with very long range BVRAAMs that allow engagement of AWACS at far ranges, and yet can safely maneuver out of the situation. Even buying a squadron of these aircraft would allow PAF to take out strategic assets of IAF.

No Chance, to destroy indian AWACS PL-15 is there with 200+ km range

 

[Philip the Arab]

No Chance, to destroy indian AWACS PL-15 is there with 200+ km range

Radar isn't good enough to get that range. You can't hit something you can't see, even if the missile has that range.

 

[StormBreaker]

You can't just compare fighters to each other in a fair way, combat is not fair. There will be assets supporting both air forces, and key way to beat Indian air force is to destroy AWACS aircraft. Without AWACS, IAF would be like a man armed with a gun, but only has a flashlight at night while PAF would be able to operate with night vision goggles. J-10C is not the key here, it can't perform the role needed to destroy AWACS at far range.

Key for PAF is buying an aircraft like Mig-31BM armed with very long range BVRAAMs that allow engagement of AWACS at far ranges, and yet can safely maneuver out of the situation. Even buying a squadron of these aircraft would allow PAF to take out strategic assets of IAF.

Instead, i would vote for a long range SAM to take care of supporting aircraft.

They are rarely restricted by the dimensions/weight of the fired missiles unlike aircraft carrying capability

 

[Ultima Thule]

Convert 16m to feet

F-16 is not 16 meter long

Radar isn't good enough to get that range. You can't hit something you can't see, even if the missile has that range.

We have AWACS also, AWACS can guide PL-15 to its target

 

[StormBreaker]

F-16 is not 16 meter long

Ohh, i am sorry, misread earlier.
You are right, F-16s are 50 feet.

 

[Philip the Arab]

We have AWACS also, AWACS can guide PL-15 to its target

That is not confirmed yet, and pairing Erieye to PL-15 will be difficult.

Instead, i would vote for a long range SAM to take care of supporting aircraft.

They are rarely restricted by the dimensions/weight of the fired missiles unlike aircraft carrying capability

SAMs are too static to be defended for a long time, Indians will launch many SEAD missions against it. Also, nobody is willing to export long range SAMs, hell even the 400km S-400 missile isn't being exported.

 

[Ultima Thule]

That is not confirmed yet, and pairing Erieye to PL-15 will be difficult.

Its possible and we are also using Chinese AWACS ZDK-3

 

[StormBreaker]

That is not confirmed yet, and pairing Erieye to PL-15 will be difficult.


SAMs are too static to be defended for a long time, Indians will launch many SEAD missions against it. Also, nobody is willing to export long range SAMs, hell even the 400km S-400 missile isn't being exported.

That is a concern, yes. And also a problem with sams, once you launch on awacs, by chance, it misses, awacs has got the trajectory and path of missile and hence knows the placement of SAMs