J-10B - Information

[DrSomnath999]

Passive Electronically Scanned Array (PESA) and the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) are the same in terms of technology and how they work, Both AESA and PESA can steer their beams electronically through use of the Phase Shifter, so it can be made in a solid state configuration (without any moving parts).

EDITED

The antenna you see there are IFF antenna, it's presence has nothing to do with whether the radar is AESA or PESA.

well the same thing as stated above by me to u , kindly post me a pics of AESA radar in this world which has those probes (antennae)

 

[Jungibaaz]

no wrong on this PESA is mechanically steered radar simple example is CAPTOR-M while aesa is electronically steered .PESA is slighly simplier in technology than AESA

Dr Saab,

Both PESA and AESA can scan without mechanically steering!
If that was the case then would it not be called Mechanically Steered Array (MSA).
All ESA radars, PESA or AESA can steer their beams electronically.

I thought that would be fairly obvious.

well the same thing as stated above by me to u , kindly post me a pics of AESA radar in this world which has those probes (antennae)

mate they are L-Band IFF probes... they have nothing to do with whether the radar is AESA or PESA.
Similarly I can show you PESA or other radars with IFF probes located elsewhere...

Take the F-16...

Here an F-16 with the AN/APG-68v9... no IFR probes there...

instead they are located here...

 

[conworldus]

Seriously? PESA = Passive Electronically Scanned Array. Mechanically steered?

One more time. The IFF system is somewhere on the plane. It can be on the radar or somewhere else. I don't know if the J-10B radar is AESA or PESA because visually they are not so different. However, you need to stop making claims and make a fool of yourself.

no wrong on this PESA is mechanically steered radar simple example is CAPTOR-M while aesa is electronically steered .PESA is slighly simplier in technology than AESA






well the same thing as stated above by me to u , kindly post me a pics of AESA radar in this world which has those probes (antennae)

 

[houshanghai]

well the same thing as stated above by me to u , kindly post me a pics of AESA radar in this world which has those probes (antennae)

it is confirmed from chinese forum and official report that J10B is an AESA radar.
I personally think J10B's AESA with IFF antenna is due to its Chin DSI and IRST

AESA with IFF is our chinese self-innovation ,well,i know you indians are still unaccustomed to chinese innovation .

 

[Ammyy]

AESA with IFF is our chinese self-innovation ,well,i know you indians are still unaccustomed to chinese innovation .

Till now only one made in China fighter came infront of world (all others are copy of Russian jets) that is JF17 and we all know how much success that plane achieved till now

So before making big claims just simply prove it ...

 

[conworldus]

Till now only one made in China fighter came infront of world (all others are copy of Russian jets) that is JF17 and we all know how much success that plane achieved till now

So before making big claims just simply prove it ...

Not true and you know it. However, keep saying that still won't make your LCA better than a Mig-21++.

 

[ziaulislam]

Till now only one made in China fighter came infront of world (all others are copy of Russian jets) that is JF17 and we all know how much success that plane achieved till now

So before making big claims just simply prove it ...

well i guess he is refering to j-11 and j-15 nut he forgets to mention j-20 and j-10b which are totally chinese design

india has to failed to come up with a copy or new design .

 

[Zabaniyah]

no wrong on this PESA is mechanically steered radar simple example is CAPTOR-M while aesa is electronically steered .PESA is slighly simplier in technology than AESA

I am no expert at the electronic aspects of radar.

But in PESA, you can actually designate multiple targets by swiching the beam between them very fast. So much so, the target supposedly would move only a few inches after each contact. So, re-finding it shouldnt be a problem.

But for AESA, it enables the radar to actually send several beams at the same time illuminating each and every target.

Here's something:

For a given size and weight, AESA technology provides a factor of 10-30 times more net radar capability than competing approaches due to power increases, lower losses, and increased flexibility. Also, AESA designs provide inherently superior countermeasure resistance, enhanced range resolution (for target identification), and more flexibility to support nontraditional radar modes such as jamming and ESM. In addition, AESA technology supports high reliability/low maintenance designs with the promise of attractive life cycle costs. These advantages are so compelling that it is unlikely that any new U.S. fighter radar will be procured in the future without AESA technology.

Although passive array technology provides electronic beam control, it has the disadvantage that phase control must be accomplished at high power to position the transmit beam. High-power phase control technology is dominated by power loss concerns. Typical total losses in early systems resulted in a factor of 10 reduction in radiated power; in modern systems these losses are still in the factor of 5 range.

The active array concept has the planar antenna face populated by discrete elements referred to as transmit/receive modules (T/R modules). In an active array the power source is now distributed and phase control to provide electronic beam steering can be accomplished at low power (and with only minor losses). Since large numbers of T/R modules can be required, viz., 3000 - 4000 per square meter, module cost has always been a primary concern with active arrays.

AN/APG Active Electronically Scanned Array AESA

So yes, Jungibaaz is correct. You don't need to mechanically steer PESA

Although the advantages of AESA are obvious, that does always mean that an aircraft sporting AESA is superior to the one sporting PESA.

The SU-30 and the MiG-31 PESA radar for example are much more powerful than that of the MiG-35. The Captor radar in the Eurofighter Typhoon (which uses a mechanical array) beats them all in range except that of the F-22.

AESA has its advantages over all other technologies but, there are exceptions when you are comparing radars for different classes of fighters.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Dr Saab,

Both PESA and AESA can scan without mechanically steering!
If that was the case then would it not be called Mechanically Steered Array (MSA).
All ESA radars, PESA or AESA can steer their beams electronically.

I thought that would be fairly obvious.

ya thats right i messed it up a bit but i meant to say about hybrid radars (mechanical phased array radars)
but let us brush up once again about various radars for our convienience
Portable Airborne Radars
This is the category that we are talking about most of the time. These are portable radars mounted on fighter aircraft. They are small and less powerful when compared to land or airborne radar systems but they can be installed on small aircraft and play the most crucial role in any combat, since its the fighter aircraft which has to shoot down the opponent. These radars detect enemy aircraft and also guide the missiles to their targets.
There are different types of portable radars:

- Mechanically Scanned Radar
- PESA (Passive Electronically Scanned Array)
- AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array)
- Mechanical Phased Array Radars

Now I am going to explain them in detail.

Mechanically Steered Radar
These are conventional radar systems that measures the location of a target in two dimensions-range and azimuth. The elevation angle, from which target height can be derived, also can be determined. This radar measures range in a conventional manner but, but uses a second conceptual antenna to measure elevation. The elevation-measuring component has a beam that is mechanically or electronically rotated about a vertical axis to obtain the azimuth angle of a target, plus either a scanning narrow beam or multiple fixed beams to measure the elevation angle.
The antenna in mechanically steered radar is steered manually, which increases the radar's horizontal field view. They can have a field view of more than 150 degrees. But since they are steered mechanically, their failure rates are high. Also steering take some time, so refresh rates are slow. Scan rates are low and the range of the radar too is limited.

Advantages:
- Very low cost
- Very large horizontal field view

Disadvantages:
- Very slow scan rates
- Limited range
- High failure rate
- High Maintenance

Examples:
RDY-2 radar used on Mirage 2000

PESA (Passive Electronically Scanned Array)
In PESA, which represented a major advance over mechanically scanned antennas, there is a single source of radar energy, which is then shifted among large numbers (often thousands) of transmitting elements, usually that can receive as well. The elements are passive in that they do not have independent energy sources.

Phased arrays not only are faster and more maintenance-free, but can do things that radars with moving antennas cannot. Earlier radar systems contributed heavily to the Radar Cross Section of the aircraft. With PESA radars, this limitation was removed. F-117 didn't have a radar due to this reason, but with the advent of PESA, B-2 could finally have a radar for precise navigation and missile guidance.
PESA radar utilize a stationary radar antenna. Since there are no moving parts, the failure rate of radar also reduced and maintenance was also no required so frequently for these radars. Although the T/R modules increased the range of the radar, they also have major disadvantages. The horizontal field view of PESA radar is very low when compared to earlier mechanical radars. To overcome this drawback, most heavy class aircraft use more than one radar, a primary radar on the nose and several secondary radars, on wings and tail.

Advantages:
- High range
- Extremely high scan rates
- Very low maintenance
- Fault of single components reduces the capability and beam sharpness, but the system remains operational

Disadvantages:
- Very limited horizontal field view
- Deformation of the beam while the deflection
- Low frequency agility

Examples:
Irbis-E PESA Radar on the Su-35BM

This radar can also be used as a hybrid radar when steered mechanically.

AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array)

As much as an advance over PESA as PESA was over mechanically steered antennas, every transmit/receive element in an AESA has its own source of radar energy. This allows the construction of extremely complex, low-probability-of-intercept active beams. There is no longer a single point of failure.

Different elements can be forming a complex low probability of intercept (LPI) transmitted signal, receiving signals reflected back to the AESA, or jamming hostile radars. Further, the AESA can receive either the reflections of its own transmitters, or listen for the reflections from another radar source, such as a large airborne radar aircraft. An AESA-equipped fighter can get close to engagement range with a target and its pilot sees clearly on the radar display, yet the fighter may be emitting no signals that can be tracked. The first warning received by the target is likely to be an incoming air-to-air missile.

AESA moves a generation ahead in low probability of intercept, as it can spread its signal among a pseudo-random set of transmitting antennas, creating a beam that is very hard to visualize. This is the reason jamming a AESA radar is almost impossible. The frequency of the signal keeps shifting almost instantaneously varying from one frequency to another. The only way to jam an AESA is to jam the complete spectrum which is not possible.

AESA does not have an advantage of range over PESA but since each T/R module is independent, some of the modules can be switched off when radar doesn't need to operate at full range. This allows the modules to cool down and be available when required. So more T/R modules can be installed on an AESA than on a PESA. The increased range of the AESA is because of more T/R modules and not because it is technically superior.

Advantages:
- High range
- Independent T/R modules
- Impossible to jam
- Extremely high scan rates
- Fault of single components reduces the capability and beam sharpness, but the system remains operational

Disadvantages:
- Very high initial cost
- Very limited horizontal field view.
- Deformation of the beam while the deflection
- Low frequency agility

Examples:
APG-81 radar on the F-35 Lightening-II

Mechanical Phased Array Radars
These are often termed as hybrid radars. They are AESA or PESA antennas steered mechanically. This gives the radar the best of both the worlds. The mechanical steering increases the horizontal field view of the radar to over 150 degrees and the Electronic Scanning provides excellent detection ranges. These radars do contribute to the rcs of the aircraft, which is the reason they are not used on aircraft for which Low observability is a requirement.

Advantages:
- Highest range
- Combines features of MSR and Phased Array radars(PESA or AESA)
- Highest field view
- Fastest scan rates

Disadvantages:
- Increases RCS of the aircraft
- Expensive
- Maintenance heavy

Examples:
N011M Bars ESA Radar on the Su30MKI

PLEASE NOTE ( thank u bro JAGITNATT for the information )

mate they are L-Band IFF probes... they have nothing to do with whether the radar is AESA or PESA.
Similarly I can show you PESA or other radars with IFF probes located elsewhere...
Here an F-16 with the AN/APG-68v9... no IFR probes there...
Take the F-16...

instead they are located here...

well mate u can find it or u may not find it in PESA & that's true ,but i havent seen any AESA radar in this world which has IFF probes in it .So it raises the suspicion about j10b radar to be aesa.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Seriously? PESA = Passive Electronically Scanned Array. Mechanically steered?

well plz look my post above ,& i had edited it (HUMAN ERROR) it happens

One more time. The IFF system is somewhere on the plane. It can be on the radar or somewhere else. I don't know if the J-10B radar is AESA or PESA because visually they are not so different. However, you need to stop making claims and make a fool of yourself.

well i am not claiming anything on my own as it has been discussed in this forum earliear & also i had posted many links about it .
The problem is the radar differs from traditional form of AESA radar which we usually see in western aesa radar so it raises doubt
to everyone that it is PESA radar

 

[DrSomnath999]

it is confirmed from chinese forum and official report that J10B is an AESA radar.
I personally think J10B's AESA with IFF antenna is due to its Chin DSI and IRST

well i dont know about chinese forum but it was discussed in this defence pk earliear .
well what has DSI got to do with IFF antenna yes IRST thing i can consider

LOL
for god's sake dont post pics of chinese letters what the heck i would understand ,atleast post an chinese article about j10b aesa radar so that atleast i could translate it

AESA with IFF is our chinese self-innovation ,well,i know you indians are still unaccustomed to chinese innovation .

WOW ,that's great now what next for j20
may be chinese should also add IRST probe along with IFF into the AESA radar for j20 so that it would be multipurpose all round AESA radar like this.

Forget indians even americans & russians would wonder about that chinese innovation & they would start copying ur innovation

 

[DrSomnath999]

I am no expert at the electronic aspects of radar.


So yes, Jungibaaz is correct. You don't need to mechanically steer PESA

lol so do I ,thats why i had edited my posts (sometimes mistakes happen but read post#99 u might get some
information)
well i got some schematic pics regarding j11 aesa radar

translated

 

[gambit]

Any AESA that has a few 'spikes' is the first generation T/R modules. The current generation has none.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Any AESA that has a few 'spikes' is the first generation T/R modules. The current generation has none.

so sir u r assuming that j10b radar may be a 1st gen aesa radar

 

[gambit]

AESA has lots of Radiating Elements, where each of them have their own Transmitter and Receiver Module, hence the Antenna (where all the modules are) becomes 'active'.

PESA uses Radio Frequency source that usually found in other types of Radar like Klystrons (linear beam vacuum tube), Magnetrons (high powered Vacuum tube) and Travelling Wave Tubes (TWT is used to amplify the Radio Frequency).

Basically...All the T/R elements in a PESA antenna receive a common transmission energy source. This is the major difference between the two types. Discrete energy sources -- per element -- are what give the AESA system its flexibility and a superior list of capabilities.